SM4 - The Great War

[CommandoBob]

Just looking at the log and the screen shot, getting a feel for what needs to be done.

Two Pink Units, one of them a Spear, 1SW of Grand River. These need to go away. Hopefully they will attack and die.

The vArcher 1NE of Salamanca is protecting a worker, yes?

Need to move the rWarrior 1SE of Niagara Falls back into the city, to keep the people under control.

Worker needs to connect Allegheny, then irrigate (to make use of the connected furs when the city grows to size 2).

Need to reconnect Grand River with Salamanca.

After Salamanca builds the rArcher, start a settler and build 2NE-1E from Salamanca. The settler build would start at size 4 and might go to size 6. This city site is on a plains tile, with the Ivory 1N of it. Would have the worker from Niagara Falls build a road for the settler to walk on, unless Grand River has not been reconnected, which is the higher priority.

Build barracks in Niagara Falls after the worker? Or a library prebuild? With two barracks, I think we only want to build vUnits from now on, unless we want some Scouting Warriors.

I will try to play tonight.

Is it too soon to get the Gray and the Yellow to dogpile on France?

 

[TimBentley]

Two Pink Units, one of them a Spear, 1SW of Grand River. These need to go away. Hopefully they will attack and die.

Both spears, actually.

The vArcher 1NE of Salamanca is protecting a worker, yes?

Yes. I don't remember whether it started roading yet.

Build barracks in Niagara Falls after the worker?

Niagara already has a barracks.

Is it too soon to get the Gray and the Yellow to dogpile on France?

I think MAs probably would cost too much at this time, especially since we need embassies first.

 

[CommandoBob]

[IBT 1500 BC]
Wake rWarrior 1SE of Niagara Falls and move into the city.
Drop luxury slider to 0%, now +18 gpt.

We have met France (war) and Zulu, India and Inca.

Worker 1NE of Salamanca is building a road, completes in 2 turns.

Hit Enter.

Pink and then Brown units come out of the fog between Grand River and Avignon.
French Spears head south.
French Archers move 1N of Grand River.

Salamanca vArcher -> settler, 5 turns.

1 1475 BC

Pink guys are Arabs.
Brown guys are Inca.

Talk to the Grand Caliph. He has 193 gold and knows The Wheel, Iron Working, Mysticism and Mathematics. So does everybody else.
We have 67 gold.

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we win (1 of 1).

Worker roads between Allegheny and Salamanca.
​

[IBT]
Arabs and Incas move into fog.

French Spears head south again.
French rArcher moves onto the hill 1NE of Grand River.
French rArcher 1N of Grand River does not attack or move.

Niagara Falls worker -> vSpear, 4 turns.

2 1450 BC

Could attack French units from Grand River, but would rather have them attack us. We are on a hill. They are two units in two different tiles. Don't think we could win both battles, in a forest and on a hill.
Begin to irrigate the new road.
New worker heads north.
​

[IBT]
Both French rArchers move to the hill 1NW of Grand River.
French Spears leave our lands.
Incas have learned Map Making.
Arabs come into view again, heading norht out of the fog.

3 1425 BC

Salamaca grows to five, raise the happy slider to 10% to keep the city quiet.
Wake eWarrior SE of the capital and move north across the river, to join the worker and vArcher, planning to attack the French Archers in open ground.
​

[IBT]
Incas have begun The Great Lighthouse.
More Arabs are visible in the east.

A French Archer attacks Grand River and dies (2 of 2).
The French Spears move onto the Fur at Niagara Falls.

Allegheny is connected.

4 1400 BC

Shuffle a vArcher to Niagara Falls.
French Spears are across the river and our only attacker is an rWarrior.
Hate not being able to attack with good odds.
I expect them to pillage our furs, though they could just be moving west through our territory.
​

[IBT]
One French Spear pillages the furs and Salamanca shuts down. Hire a geek for one turn. Other cities are okay.
Second French Spear moves 1SW onto improved plains, still across the river.

Grand River vArcher -> vArcher, 5 turns.

Zulu are building The Temple of Artemis.

5 1375 BC

Raise the happy slider to 20%, fire the geek. When Salamaca is restored to order it should complete the settler.
Niagara Falls vSpear -> vArcher, still 2 turns.

Everyone knows Map Making.

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we are redlined but win (3 of 3).
North side is clear of any Frenchies.
Shuffle a second vArcher to Niagara Falls.

In Niagara Falls we have a vArcher and a rWarrior that can attack the rSpear across the river.
Checked the Civopedia; rivers do NOT give a defensive bonus.

vArcher vs. rSpear, Spear wins and promotes (3 of 4).
If the Spear were redlined I would attack with the Warrior, but to do so now is suicide.
Move rWarrior onto improved plains SW of Niagara Falls and fortify.

Spot a greyish-blue border to our southeast.
​

[IBT]
Salamanca settler -> vArcher, 4 turns. Salmanca grows to size 4 in 4 turns, also.
Niagara Falls vArcher -> worker, 2 turns.

Zulus are building The Great Lighthouse.

French rArchers appear, one north of Grand River near the ruins and the other east of Grand River, coming from Avignon.
Wounded French Spear heads home but the other Spear takes his place, 1S of Niagara Falls.

6 1350 BC

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rSpear, Spear wins (3 of 5).
vArcher vs. French rSpear 1/3, Archer wins (4 of 6).

Move the rWarrior 1SW of Niagara Falls SE to join the victorious and wounded Archer.
Wake vWarrior in Grand River to protect our worker. This leaves 5 units in Grand River, 2 Spears and 3 Archers.

Niagara Falls has only 1 MP, so leave lux slider at 20%.

Have an Archer exploring north, see 3 Ivory.
​

[IBT]
India tresspasses from the west with 4 rWarriors, all around Allegheny.
Up north, near the Ivory, both Inca and French settler pairs show up.
French Archers move adjacent to Grand River, 1N and 1NE.

7 1325 BC

Move settler to city location, 3NE of Salamanca, which is 1S of an Ivory.
Wake the vSpear in Salamanca and move to join the settler.
Worker irrigates the plain behind the settler (2NE of Salamanca).
Move eWarrior from Salamanca to Allegheny.
Move vWarrior into Salamanca (the one protecting the worker NE of the city).

Up north our exploring Archer has a problem. Attacking the French settler pair is very attractive, except that the other two attacks on French Spears have resulted in 1 win and 2 losses. We would capture two slaves if we won, but a French Archer is also on hand and would surely attack us on the IBT.
I think I'll let the Incas and the French sort this out on their own.
North vArcher moves 1S towards the new city.

Wake vSpear in NF and send to Salamanca.
Move Spear and Warrior back into NF.
Drop lux slider to 10% and all is well.

​

[IBT]
Indian warriors bypass Allegheny, seem interested in our unprotected worker next to Allegheny.
French Archer from the north moves towards the unprotected irrigating worker near our new city.
French Archers near Grand River bypass the city, heading towards our now unprotected irrigating worker.

Two French rArchers and one rWarrior appear 2N of Grand River.

France builds Dijon north of our new city, yet unbuilt. We can still build, but the Incas lost out.
Niagara Falls worker -> vSpear, 4 turns.

Incas are building the Mausoleum of Mausollos.
Incas learned Philosophy (MapStat) and sold it to the Zulus. The Zulus were the richest, now the Incas are. We are the second richest.

8 1300 BC

Plains irrigated next to Allegheny. Move that worker to the forest 1N of Salamanca. Will either road or chop this forest.
Build Ivory City 3NE of Salamanca, grows in 20, walls in 7.

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we die, putting 1HP on the Frechie (4 of 7).
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we die again (!) and do just as much damage (4 of 8).
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we die again (!!) and this time we redline the Frenchie just before it promotes to Elite. (4 of 9).
eArcher vs. French rArcher 2/3, we are redlined but win (5 of 10).

Wanted to kill the French Archers on the hill before they could get to our worker. Lost two Archers instead for one dead and one wounded Frenchies.
Move vSpear out of Grand River to protect the worker. With no easy prey, the lone French Archer should retreat northward and away.

Fortify units in cities. Leave new worker in Niagara Falls unmoved.
​

[IBT]

Call it quits at this point.

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

Our World 1300 BC

With Indians in our interior and the French coming on strong, and having lost four archers (we have two left), I thought it was time to pass the game on.

I am tempted to ignore the Indians and I might if there were only one or two units marching through our lands. But there are four Warriors near Allegheny and they seemed to be interested in our worker. That worker is now rather far away but the Indian warriors are still next to Allegheny (they have not had a chance to move). They could attack.

The Indian issue and the Archer losses are what caused me to end the turns early. Either I just had bad RNG or combat at Diety is different from the lower levels. We can dance around the French; I am not too worried about them, though we need to attack soon.

Random Notes and Thoughts
The worker in the forest north of Salamanca I had planned to make a road in the forest or else chop the forest and then make the road. This will make east-west movement a bit faster since we can bypass Salamanca when going from Ivory City to Grand Rapids.

I considered waking the worker next to Grand Rapids and have him join to Salamanca but decided against that. Seemed to be a bit too desperate for the times. Irrigation completes in 2.

I did not move the new worker in Niagara Falls. Don't want him to be a draw to the French spear nearby or the Indian warriors. His best move could be to the forest between Salamanca and NF.

Allegheny completes barracks this IBT.

NF is building a spear just for defense. Salamanca and Grand Rapids are building vArchers, both due in 2.

Ivory City is building walls for the extra defense. May not be the best build. Feel free to change it. Barracks takes 14 turns; an rSpear takes 7 turns.

 

[choxorn]

I believe you are having a case of BRNGL: Bad Random Number Generator Luck. Welcome to the club, Commando Bob!

 

[CommandoBob]

I believe you are having a case of BRNGL: Bad Random Number Generator Luck. Welcome to the club, Commando Bob!

Well, BRNGL, a surprise move by the Indians and it being my first Diety C3C game all conspired together to scare me into stopping at 8 turns. It seemed our position was worse at the end of eight turns than before we started. I didn't want to play two more turns and have things degrade even more.

(Well, okay, maybe I listened too much to my own fears. I'll get over it. Just didn't want to ruin the game, which seemed very possible after turn 8.)

 

[TimBentley]

The Indians may just be wandering about going barb hunting.

A unit with attack 3 would be nice and avoid losing to spears (CommandoBob actually had better luck against them than I did). However, iron working would cost 161g and 12gpt (377g assuming 1gpt=18g) and we may not have any iron. The wheel would cost 159g and 6gpt(267g), and I estimate that horseback riding would cost 293g (That's assuming a resource increases the price the same as on regent, since I haven't done any difficulty testing. I'm pretty sure a UU wouldn't be worth more than a normal unit.).

 

[Smart]

I agree about India - on Deity most of civs will walk through your territory without fear, because they have big advantage at the start. Four warriors won't declare war probably, but we can move one spear to Allegheny, this will turn their chances to zero.

With all those hills around, chances for iron are really high, for UU we would need two techs instead of one... Also we aren't ready for GA, but if things are realy worst then we may trigger it even now...
We can take that french town near Ivory City if we have some free archers, but I didn't looked at the save yet... Also, what about sending 1-2 reg warriors for exploring? There are many unmet civs and if we will be boxed by our rivals, it would be hard to find them...

 

[adz106]

I'll play 12 turns and post later tonight. Gotta love the RNG.

 

[adz106]

Turns 68-79

1300BC – switch Ivory City to a rax, Grand River to walls. We’re going to have to lay low with a good defensive position till we can build up an offense again. Worker in NF 1 NW to irrigate.

IBT – French spearmen heals and moves onto irrigation SW of NF. 1 warrior and two archers move next to grand river.

1275 BC – Allegheny rax > archer, attack with archer in NF and win (1 hp left). Fortify redlined elite archer in GR, move regular spearmen off of worker into GR and also fortify.

Move worker near Salamanca west, other worker starts irrigation.

IBT – Zulu are building the great wall, Cuzco complete ToA, Bombay completes the great lighthouse….Both regular archers lose to our elite spear, warrior fortifies.

1250 BC– GR completes walls > archer, Salamanca archer > Settler. Worker finishes irrigation for GR moves SW to start a road to the next city, other worker starts irrigation for Salamanca. Take out rarcher near Ivory City with varcher from Salamanca. MM tiles so that Salamanca is growth in 5, settler in 5. (French losses so far 4, Iroquois 0)

IBT – rwarrior loses to our elite spear, Zulu and Inca are building the MM, Inca are building the GW (losses 5-0)

1225 BC – archer out of woods into Ivory city, fortify archer in NF. Worker starts road by Salamanca, other worker behind Ivory City to chop for rax.

IBT – rarcher loses our espearmen (6-0)

1200 BC – NF spearmen >archer, fortify wounded archer in Ivory City. Worker starts chopping forest move spearmen to new city location.

IBT – Inca complete SoZ, rarcher loses to our espear (7-0)

1175 BC – worker finishes irrigation for NF, starts road.

IBT – rarcher loses to espear (8-0)

1150 BC – GR archer > archer, worker finishes irrigation for Salamanca, starts road. Other worker moves SW to put a road down to the new city.

IBT – racher loses to espear, rarcher loses to vspear. (10-0) Zulu are now building the GW also. Zimbabwe completes the MM.

1125 BC – Salamanca settler > archer. We can buy IW from the zulu for 8gpt and 275g. I decide to wait since France is putting little heat on us at the moment.

IBT – worker hacks forest by Ivory City, two rarchers lose to espear without taking a single hit point off of it. (12-0)

1100 BC – NF archer > spear, Allegheny archer > archer. Worker by IC irrigates, both archers move to Salamanca. Worker by NF moves onto furs to chop forest.

IBT – rarcher loses to espear (13-0)

1075BC – one archer moves toward new city for more security, other fortifies in Salamanca so it can go to IC or GR if needed. Worker by Salamanca moves to Allegheny to chop forest. Begin chopping fur forest.

IBT – rarcher loses to espear, rarcher loses to vspear (15-0)

1050 BC – Grand River archer > archer, Ivory City rax > archer. Fortify archer in GR, chop forest by Allegheny. Worker finishes road to new city, starts irrigation. Oil Springs founded.

IBT – no attacks although several rarchers are approaching GR.

1025 BC – Salamanca grows….

IBT – the archers now look like they’ve had enough of our espear and are moving along the hilltops without attacking. We’ll need to come up with a strategy to handle that but we have enough military to do it.

1000 BC – NF spear >archer and end of my turn.

Current military stats

Spearmen – 6 (1 elite, 5 veterans)
Archers – 7 (1 elite, 6 regulars)
Warriors – 4 (2 elite, 1 vet, 1 reg)
Workers – 4

Here’s the screenshot of the last turn and the save. Workers will be done hacking forest in 1 and 2 turns. I think we should try to put another city by the coast before someone else does or move toward the French and put one right by that lake. We could use some more workers as well.

I should've built another archer in Salamanca before setting it to another settler but I screwed up. It can still be changed without much loss I'll leave that up to who's next. We're definitely going to need more cities if we're going to have enough power to go on the offensive.

 

[ThERat]

excellent turns and kill ratio (it's not even a ratio). If we manage to get an army, we should be able to attack. I would buy iron sooner or later, we need it

 

[TimBentley]

We can buy IW from the zulu for 8gpt and 275g.

Last I checked India had a better price (aggression is a larger factor in trading prices than I would have guessed).

 

[adz106]

I was doing some thinking about what research path we should pursue. I think we may want to reconsider IW and go for wheel/HR. Since all of our cities are on plains an early golden will still double our production I believe. We are a long way off of whatever government we're going for and I think we're essentially wasting a lot of shields dinking around with these archers.

If I'm right we still get the commerce bonus on any tile not next to a river correct?

Also if we wait to long we could lose the advantage of the MW. I feel like we could break this open right now if we started pumping MW's.

 

[Smart]

First of all, I want to say that it was really good turnset, now there is almost no danger
Since our main military will contain fast moving units with upgrade path MW -> Knight -> Cavalry, IW and swords probably would be a little waste... Of course we can't wait for goverment change, but more cities will increase GA advantage. We already have a good defense, so we can build some settlers before those civs will fill all free land. And yes, commerce on tiles without river and all shields will be doubled even in Despotism.
Buying those techs and triggering GA sounds like a good plan, during those 20 turns we will be able to cripple France.

 

[Cyllus]

Aighty then, "got it", can play tonight.

I take it we're 1. defending
2. expanding
3. trying to get Mounted Warriors?

Should we soon be using pointy stick research also? How else are we going to catch up in this thing. We'd need to go to war with another civ that we could sign peace with before finishing off France right? *boggle* Can we even finish France off in time that we don't declar on Inca and face muskets

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: About the government changes, if I may eavesdrop and give an opinion, don't hurry it too much, count unit supports before you go for it and make sure it will not hurt your military production. Prepare for increasing unit costs because your military will grow faster than your empire.

On a mid-long term run, if you make core cities into larger, more knight-able manufactures, make sure you "pass the puck" of settler making status since having a settler pump will give you much more unit support - and economy overall - than a size 7+ city. Balancing both of those will be crucial for your long-term research and trade potential. Making settlers at the odd occasion when cities grow will not be good enough.

X-post: pointy stick research requires peace talks, which can only be achieved in this variant if you declare war to another front, and this is not an option when defending is still #1 on the list

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Well after you get past the must-be-in-defense mode, fight a short war against one of the other AI, collect tech for peace.

 

[Cyllus]

Only had a chance to look at the save, the wrold is up Philo on Inda and will trade it to us. Going to try to get The Wheel/HBR/and Philo firs thing. Will ge to this tonight for sure. Last night I had to go out late (ok I didn't *have* to...). My better half wants to watch a movie Hopefully it doen't suck. Will get to this afterwards.

 

[choxorn]

While you're at it, look at the save in n's SG!

 

[Cyllus]

Will do Chox.