Small question about SE

[daunt]

I've tried to find this out in the other threads about SE, but I haven't seen this issue covered.

I seem to understand that the point of a SE is to convert GP points into science by lightbulbing. This would mean that more GP are produced (otherwise one could run a CE and lightbulb anyway).

So: is it necessary to balance the GP output of every city in order to use all the points that are created everywhere?

For example, I build the GL in one city. that's 16 GPp with phi, 24 with trait. Shall I avoid building other wonders in the same city, in order to keep the output low (considering that other cities may have their usual 2 scientists from library, so their points would be 18)? This would mean that every city's GP output is used and no point is wasted, although I couldn't build a national poem.

In this case: are the pyramids necessary? if the economy is based more on the gp points converted into science, do a few points from scientists really matter?

I've found myself many times with lots of cities having a low GP output if compared with the main production city, which is the only one able to build wonders (level is emperor), and knowing they simply will never produce a GP. So their science output is low (if compared with a CE), and they can't convert GPp into science.

 

[carl corey]

First, I mostly play SEs (or near SEs) with a Philosophical leader. So I already have a bonus for GP generation. I'm also pretty inclined to get GSs instead of other GPs, so until the Great Library which city generates the GP is dependent only on the amount of food each city has. Usually the capital generates the first GP, but the second (or third) could come from the second city. Post GL I let the GL city spawn the most GPs. At one point the other cities will catch up and spawn their own GPs, thus not "wasting" their own GPp.

But I don't really see the reason for not building National Epic. You might say it pollutes the GS points, but you should build it in a city that already has the GL so the GSp/GAp ratio is clearly in favor of the GSs. Take advantage of that city all you can.

Pyramids are good, but certainly not easy to get. Since there's no Philo/Industrious leader your best bet is to either have Stone nearby or take them from a neighbor. At Monarch level I don't rely on the Pyramids to run a SE anyway.

And I'd just like to add that lightbulbing isn't the only benefit of a SE. It is more flexible due to the virtual independence of research and science/culture/gold slider, it's also less "pillagable". I'd say don't get caught in the "wasted GPp" problem. Things will even out in the long run and even the slower GPp generating cities will have a better chance to spawn one than in a CE economy, since you'll constantly keep up with the main GP city.

 

[Wodan]

To contract/compliment what carl said, I would say that non-Philo has its own advantages. I almost always do random leader, so when I do a SE I see different benefits than carl does.

For example, the comment about Pyramids... easier of course if you have an Industrious leader or have stone, and piece of cake if you've both. Even if you miss it, the cash payback will fuel your early empire quite a bit.

As for trying to pace all your cities to even out GP generation, and to avoid the NE... Well, lately I've been doing a lot of SE -> CE switches. What you do is when that oddball city makes a great scientist, go in and turn OFF the scientists. Send in a half dozen workers and cottage the farms over. Pick one food heavy city to be your GP farm, and that's where you put the NE. Your cities will be staggered in how they create a GS, which works our perfectly because you only have limited workers to convert to cottages.

Carl's right of course about building the great library in the future site of the GP farm. I usually also put Sankore and Oxford there too. Yes, you're "polluted" a little bit but who cares. The benefits outweigh the oddball great artist you might get. Plus, a single GA during the game is a useful thing to have. Settle it in a border city to get the 12 culture, and the 3 gold and 3 beakers is hardly something to sneer at.

Wodan

 

[svv]

Much better than getting great scientists is getting great engineers. That's one reason why building pyramids (and if you have warlords, great wall) is so good.

Changing from my previous combinations, I like to build national epic in my GP city, and save the other national wonder slot for Ironworks (so I can build three more engineers there). I'll combine this with several other wonders if I can, especially great library (for the combined gp points from the wonder itself and the free scientists it supplies), Hanging Gardens and Hagia Sophia (for the great engineer points) and later Pentagon, Statue of Liberty, and Three Gorges Dam (all great wonders, and all providing great engineer points).

Hopefully you're getting a mix of scientists and engineers from your GP city. The scientists can lightbulb techs, or build an academy in the GP city, and then another in a super-commerce/science city elsewhere. The great engineers can help build the wonders in the GP city itself (especially the Ironworks, Pentagon and 3 Gorges - hard to build without great engineer help), and key wonders in other cities (especially Oxford in your commerce city, which might have very low hammers, and possibly wall street in your religion/money city).

 

[Winston Hughes]

Yes, you're "polluted" a little bit but who cares. The benefits outweigh the oddball great artist you might get. Plus, a single GA during the game is a useful thing to have.

On a crowded map, a settled or culture bombed GA can actually be the most powerful GP: it's the only one that has the potential to gain you an extra city.

In one game I managed to pop 3 GAs from my GP farm at what must have been extremely unlikely odds. Three border cities got culture bombs, leading a total of 5 AI cities to revolt over to me, nearly doubling my total number of cities whilst severely damaging my neighbours. The spoils of war without the effort or the risks!

 

[LucyDuke]

The spoils of war without the effort or the risks!

This, this is why I don't understand when people knock GAs! They might not seem as powerful as a GE, and I think I'd prefer a GE to a GA, but seriously, this is their overlooked strength. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.

 

[DaveMcW]

So their science output is low (if compared with a CE), and they can't convert GPp into science.

That is the problem with a "pure" SE. The only solution is to build cottages in a few cities.

 

[Wodan]

On a crowded map, a settled or culture bombed GA can actually be the most powerful GP: it's the only one that has the potential to gain you an extra city.

In one game I managed to pop 3 GAs from my GP farm at what must have been extremely unlikely odds. Three border cities got culture bombs, leading a total of 5 AI cities to revolt over to me, nearly doubling my total number of cities whilst severely damaging my neighbours. The spoils of war without the effort or the risks!

I disagree there are no risks... many AIs will attack you because of the cultural pressure. And if you don't have the military to back it up....

Furthermore, getting a city via cultural pressure is usually marginal, because the AI has other cities behind it (usually only 3 tiles away, possibly 4, but hardly ever 5 as a human will usually do). So, the city you get is really only a "half" city as the AI will still own the tiles on the other side.

Lastly, there's something to be said for duplication of means to an end. That is, you can use a modest military to get that city.

On the other hand, you can't easily use a half dozen axemen to get Philosophy.

Besides, if that's your strategy, then you should build entirely different wonders, the NE, and run artists. You'll get 15-20 GAs throughout the game. Whatever floats your boat!

It's also great to do this when going for a cultural victory, of course. Settle GAs in your big 3 cities early on, and later, save them for bombing the weaker of the 3 to bring its numbers up and win the game.

Oh, one other thing I disagree with... "the only one with the potential to get an extra city". Using a GE to make Versailles (etc) will result in just as much cultural pressure (not a bomb, but often a bomb won't push back an established city, either). Furthermore, you could use a GE to build the Pentagon, which will result in a lot more than 1 captured city.

This is all silly, really. Every GP has its strengths.

Wodan

 

[Winston Hughes]

Wodan: Okay, where to start...

Risks: If my borders are pressed up against my neighbours' already, a culture bomb or settled GA isn't going to make a great difference to the diplomatic situation. If, on the other hand, I invade my neighbour, not only do I run the risk of failure (unless I take enough troops to be certain, which will divert me from other builds), but I may also accumulate negative modifiers with other civs or, in the worst case, end up at war with one of my victim's friends. I didn't say there was no risk, I said you can gain a city without the risks of war.

Marginal gain: Is it any different when you conquer a city? I think the problem is worse in that case; you not only have the turns of resistance to endure, but the city will often start off with very little cultural influence around it. When you take a city with culture you're guaranteed to have a goodly number workable tiles at least.

Duplication: You can use that army to take another city, or just avoid building some of those troops in the first place, allowing you to concentrate on economy-boosting builds.

Axemen/Philosophy: Note my wording - "a settled or culture bombed GA can actually be the most powerful GP". It depends on the situation. If you're depending on a GS to 'bulb Philosophy, then obviously a GA will be a pain in the arse. But, in some situations, that unexpected GA can prove to be a blessing in disguise.

In my example, I talked about a situation where I landed three GAs by accident. I had friendly civs nextdoor, who were my only tech trading partners. By going to war with one of them (which was my original plan), I would have risked ending up in a war with both of them, thereby leaving myself with a war on two fronts and no trading opportunities. By taking cities from them with culture-bombs, I avoided any significant penalties to my diplomatic modifiers, and was able to continue trading my way into the lead.

The cities I captured from them were perfectly workable, providing more than enough hammers and commerce to justify their inclusion in my empire. Had I popped GSs instead, I would have run up much greater diplomatic penalties to grab that land, not to mention the numerous turns spent building troops to throw at their walls, when economy-boosting buildings were available. The long-term economic power of the culture-grabbed cities easily outweighed the short-term advantages from lightbulbed techs.

 

[Wodan]

Risks: If my borders are pressed up against my neighbours' already, a culture bomb or settled GA isn't going to make a great difference to the diplomatic situation. If, on the other hand, I invade my neighbour, not only do I run the risk of failure (unless I take enough troops to be certain, which will divert me from other builds), but I may also accumulate negative modifiers with other civs or, in the worst case, end up at war with one of my victim's friends. I didn't say there was no risk, I said you can gain a city without the risks of war.

Agreed.

If there was no benefit to using a GA to influence culture, Firaxis wouldn't have programmed it in the game in the first place.

The question is how does it compare to the benefits of using a GE to rush or settle, or a GS to rush or settle, or a GP to shrine or settle...

Marginal gain: Is it any different when you conquer a city? I think the problem is worse in that case; you not only have the turns of resistance to endure, but the city will often start off with very little cultural influence around it. When you take a city with culture you're guaranteed to have a goodly number workable tiles at least.

Good point. However, being at war, you can continue and take the next city as well. That is not an option available to your GA strategy.

Duplication: You can use that army to take another city, or just avoid building some of those troops in the first place, allowing you to concentrate on economy-boosting builds.

Agreed.

With the caveat that neglecting your military has risks. Basically: when you are pursuing a military strategy, there is less risk you can be caught militarily unprepared. So, the GA strategy could be said to have hidden risks in this regard.

Axemen/Philosophy: Note my wording - "a settled or culture bombed GA can actually be the most powerful GP". It depends on the situation. If you're depending on a GS to 'bulb Philosophy, then obviously a GA will be a pain in the arse.

Disagree. GP are always useful, no matter the type. (Well, except a great prophet in the modern age, which is about as useful as nipples on a guy.) If you put all your eggs in one basket then you deserve to not get Philo. Much better to have two cities with successive chances to get a GS.

But, in some situations, that unexpected GA can prove to be a blessing in disguise.

Agreed.

The cities I captured from them were perfectly workable, providing more than enough hammers and commerce to justify their inclusion in my empire. Had I popped GSs instead, I would have run up much greater diplomatic penalties to grab that land, not to mention the numerous turns spent building troops to throw at their walls, when economy-boosting buildings were available. The long-term economic power of the culture-grabbed cities easily outweighed the short-term advantages from lightbulbed techs.

But who knows what "could" have happened. If you had used GS's to create Academies, for example, perhaps the added culture would have been enough to pop one or more of those cities. And, you would have significantly improved research in the three cities now with Academies. Honestly there's no real way to tell which would have been better.

Wodan

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Ahem. So...what happens if a far away neighbor beats you to the Great Library? Is the SE crippled or can it still function?

 

[Wodan]

Ahem. So...what happens if a far away neighbor beats you to the Great Library? Is the SE crippled or can it still function?

whoa, deja vu. I just answered this in another thread.

Benefit of the Great Library is the synergy when combined with Pyramids. W/o Pyramids, the GL is just as beneficial to a CE as a SE.

A SE does just fine w/o the GL. It's a better question whether a SE w/o Pyramids is crippled or can it still function.

Wodan

 

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

This, this is why I don't understand when people knock GAs! They might not seem as powerful as a GE, and I think I'd prefer a GE to a GA, but seriously, this is their overlooked strength. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.

I don't get it, either. Like Winston Hughes, I once popped three GAs in a row from my GPF, each soon after I had founded a new city along my frontier. In each case I culture bombed, giving me immediate room to breathe and ultimately causing two rival cities to join my empire. Pretty damn useful.

I generally keep my liking of GAs to myself, lest people think me an idiot.

 

[LucyDuke]

I generally keep my liking of GAs to myself, lest people think me an idiot.

GA fans anonymous, eh? I won't tell anyone.

 

[carl corey]

I mostly use them to culture bomb cities I just captured. Did it twice in my last game, allowing me to rapidly bring reserve troops in it, get out of revolt and so heal the city attackers faster. It also ensures that a viable counter-attack can come from only a limited area, instead of leaving "neutral" roads for everyone to use. So while I'm not a GA fans anonymous member, I still don't "despair" when I get one.

---

More on topic, I'm playing an almost SE with Frederick now. "Almost" because the capital is heavily cottaged to use the Bureaucracy bonus, and I have two holy cities in which I'm trying to put shrines and I'm also cottaging those. But I must say it's working pretty well, and Frederick's Philosophical trait allowed me to have 5 GSs so far and I haven't even built National Epic yet as I don't have Literature. The settings are Monarch, Continents, Standard size, Normal Speed and I got first to Liberalism and even had the time to backfill to Banking to get Economics as the free tech (got the Great Merchant).

So yeah, SE is viable even without Pyramids or Great Library. They're good additions if you have the resources to speed them up, but it can work even without. In fact I think I didn't build even one world wonder so far.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Would anyone ever do a SE without a Philosophical leader? Would it be too slow?

 

[LucyDuke]

Would anyone ever do a SE without a Philosophical leader? Would it be too slow?

It wouldn't be too slow at all. Philosophical leaders have a bonus for generating GPP, but GP get more expensive each time. They don't get a bonus on the price. All other factors being equal, I think the math is supposed to work out to about 1.5x as many GP for a philosophical leader. If SE only worked for philosophical leaders, it wouldn't be anywhere near as useful.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

If there was no benefit to using a GA to influence culture, Firaxis wouldn't have programmed it in the game in the first place.

One word counter argument: Forts.

 

[carl corey]

Hehe, those really are the most useless things in the game, aren't they?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

That is the problem with a "pure" SE. The only solution is to build cottages in a few cities.

You don't need cottages to run fast-researching SE at any point of a game.