[GS] So, how do people feel about Eras?

I don't want dark ages to be extremely hard or sth. And I don't want them to make it so.

I only want dark ages not THAT good. Now the real problem is that dark ages themselves are so GOOD that if I am able to choose from entering a golden, normal, or dark age without looking at era scores, I'll mostly choose to enter a dark one. Dark ages help to get some really incredible scenarios, such as T40 Cossack.

Dark ages are DARK ages, they shall not be THAT GOOD! Being as strong as normal age is fine, being better than golden/heroic ages is not what players expected.
 
Lots or people have said they wish Dark Ages were tougher, and I can see why. But I honestly don’t think it’s the right approach.

First, I just don’t think “Dark Ages were bad” is historical. The real Dark Ages just weren’t that bad. It was just a name historians gave to a particular period of time (and largely mostly focused on europe), and was mostly just a reference to the lack of records from that time. See Wikipedia link here.

Second, I don’t think that’s the most fun design. If Dark Ages are just bad, then you’ll want to always avoid them. If you always avoid them... then you never really get to play with them. So the mechanic basically becomes a dead letter (at least for good players).
Without going into the whole historic discussion, the whole part about Dark Ages - from my perspective - should be that they are a punishment for you. You should want to avoid them - they should be what happened, when you haven't managed to do enough good things to get one of the better eras.

Now like I said above, I acknowledge completely the fact that we don't want Dark Ages to become a pit that you can't get up from, but I think there are things that could be done:
- Dark Ages should give you a minor penalty to science, culture, faith, gold, production and/or food. Not necessarily all of them - there could even be triggers based on what actions you have experienced that decides which ones to penalize.
- You should be forced to use a Dark Age policy card, i.e. one of your wildcard policy slots should be transformed into a dark age policy slot that must be filled. The point with this should be that the DA policy cards should give you a chance to eliminate one of the penalties listed above, but possibly at the cost of making one of the other penalties larger.
- Heroic ages must be decoupled from Dark Ages. Whether it become a regular super-Golden Age like suggested above, or has some other mechanism - maybe you can only trigger a Heroic Age once you have survived a Dark Age, but it doesn't have to come directly after, I don't know - but we need to move away from things that encourage people to actively seek Dark Ages.
 
First, I just don’t think “Dark Ages were bad” is historical. The real Dark Ages just weren’t that bad. It was just a name historians gave to a particular period of time (and largely mostly focused on europe), and was mostly just a reference to the lack of records from that time. See Wikipedia link here.
On the historical argument, I'd say that comparing the in-game term 'Dark Age' to the period in history that used to be known as 'the Dark Ages' is perhaps not very helpful, given that this terminology is considered somewhat out of date.

From the same Wikipedia link:
As the accomplishments of the era came to be better understood in the 19th and 20th centuries, scholars began restricting the "Dark Ages" appellation to the Early Middle Ages (c. 5th–10th century), and now scholars also reject its usage in this period. The majority of modern scholars avoid the term altogether due to its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate. Petrarch's pejorative meaning remains in use, typically in popular culture which often mischaracterises the Middle Ages as a time of violence and backwardness.

To me, all this means is that we're not looking at the Early Middle Ages as an exemplar for the sort of 'Dark Age' the game is trying to convey. Saying that the Early Middle Ages weren't really a 'Dark Age' doesn't mean that the concept cannot exist at all, or that there weren't plenty of other difficult and challenging times faced by historical civilisations that the in-game 'Dark Age' could be representing.

As I said earlier, I consider myself a casual player. I don't really care about Dark Ages being especially difficult. I just want them to feel like something you want to avoid, or that going for the Dark-Heroic slingshot should pose some kind of short-term challenge or slowdown as a tradeoff.
 
Dark Ages ... should be what happened, when you haven't managed to do enough good things to get one of the better eras.

I think your view is totally legitimate. But it’s just not where I think the most fun is for this Mechanic.

I do like the whole idea of “consequences for doing a bad job or making bad decisions” thing. I’d just prefer to see that mechanic as part of the overall empire management of the game, eg maintenance, happiness, stuff like that, rather than as part of the Era system.

To me, Dark Ages and a Golden Ages can play a role in making empire management easier or harder, but fundamentally the actual business of managing your empire needs to get harder.

There are currently really very few moments in a Civ game when you go “oh my” just before everything comes tumbling down, and what moments there are exclusively military related (and frankly usually barbs gone wild at that). I really don’t think Dark Ages should be that Mechanic, because avoiding them is trivial and I think the current design is more dynamic being a mix of sometimes good sometimes bad sometimes both. But the game does need more of those moments when you really sweat. More moments where you build a house of cards, and then it gets knocked over and you’re scrambling to fix it.

I'd say that comparing the in-game term 'Dark Age' to the period in history that used to be known as 'the Dark Ages' is perhaps not very helpful, given that this terminology is considered somewhat out of date.

That’s a fair point. My historical argument was a bit cheeky.

Dark Ages are clearly meant to represent more period of turmoil rather than a particular historical period, although I do think the concept is maybe informed a little about how people used to think of the actual dark ages previously.
 
I do like the whole idea of “consequences for doing a bad job or making bad decisions” thing. I’d just prefer to see that mechanic as part of the overall empire management of the game, eg maintenance, happiness, stuff like that, rather than as part of the Era system.
Yes, I'm fully behind a much more nuanced system, that takes more factors into account - for instance, scoring on not just "historic events", but also on scientific and cultural progression (which I know is currently included in dedications, but I'm not sure that is the best approach), empire happiness, etc. I also think such a system could possibly open up for some correlation between how you perform in different areas and which possible penalties you'd receive - for instance: If you score poorly on happiness with many unhappy citizens, you'd get penalty towards growth and production, because people will not want to live and work in your empire if you can't keep them happy.
 
On the historical argument, I'd say that comparing the in-game term 'Dark Age' to the period in history that used to be known as 'the Dark Ages' is perhaps not very helpful, given that this terminology is considered somewhat out of date.

From the same Wikipedia link:


To me, all this means is that we're not looking at the Early Middle Ages as an exemplar for the sort of 'Dark Age' the game is trying to convey. Saying that the Early Middle Ages weren't really a 'Dark Age' doesn't mean that the concept cannot exist at all, or that there weren't plenty of other difficult and challenging times faced by historical civilisations that the in-game 'Dark Age' could be representing.

As I said earlier, I consider myself a casual player. I don't really care about Dark Ages being especially difficult. I just want them to feel like something you want to avoid, or that going for the Dark-Heroic slingshot should pose some kind of short-term challenge or slowdown as a tradeoff.

The point that the game should use (again, IMHO) is that "Dark Ages" were never Entirely Dark. In fact, if you divide up consequences into Political, Diplomatic, Religious, Scientific, Trade, Production (the usual suspects in Game Design) you will be hard put to find ANY period in history when all of them simultaneously went into 'decline'.

In fact, to use a different example than the Early Middle Ages, the "Greek Dark Ages" were supposed to be the period between the collapse of Mycenean societies about 1100 BCE and the "Archaic" (beginning of the Classical City States) period around 800 BCE. In those 3 centuries the population declined, writing disappeared, the political organization of the Palace cultures disappeared, most long distance trade disappeared. All Bad. But Iron-working was introduced generally, resulting in a complete change in military (iron was cheap enough that many more men could be armed than just the elite nobility) and they started colonizing nearby places like Cyprus and did keep some trade going throughout the period with the Middle East. In other words, it was actually much worse than even the traditional view of the Early Middle Ages - where at least the forms of Roman administration and governance were maintained, at least locally - but even so it wasn't totally negative in all respects. And, also significant, the following period (800 - 600 BCE) was the High Point of Greek colonization - the earliest city states saw a population explosion that was exported to new Greek cities all across the Mediterranean, North Africa, and the coasts of the Black Sea and Anatolia. The only comparable expansion of a group I know of would be the expansion of the population of the USA into the midwest and west between 1790 and 1890 CE.

So, "Dark Ages", "Times of Troubles", "The Warring States" - names all over the world refer to what we are talking about here - should never be 100% negative (that's bad both historically and for game play) but in all cases seem to mean primarily a collapse of central Political authority - the 'Free Cities' mechanic of Civ VI expanded dramatically. That is also almost always accompanied by a loss of long distance Trade and money/Gold and authority for what government remains, but not always negative results to individual cities and areas within the Civ: even during the 'traditional Dark Ages' of 600 - 1000 CE in Europe, while cities stagnated or got smaller, the total population of the region around them does not seem to have always lost population, and the prosperity of individual hamlets and villages may have gone up (just for an instance, the numbers of water and other Mills and access to iron tools from local blacksmiths seems to have gone up dramatically in that period compared to the previous Roman Empire/Classical Era).

As others have stated here, we need a lot more nuanced approach to the 'Cycles' of Civ-Building in the game, as expressed in Golden, Dark, Heroic, or other 'Ages' or Eras.
 
I think it's time to increase the score requirements for normal and golden ages, at least on Deity. The mechanic is old enough and experienced players already know how to chain golden ages with ease.
I'd really like to experiment more with the Dark Ages policies but right now it's almost impossible to get them after the classical era which makes the whole mechanic a lot more one dimensional than it could be.
 
They are my least favorite mechanic in Civ6.
Earning era points forces me to repeat the same events/steps regardless of which Civ and play style I’m wanting to choose. I must always build a boat for those points even if I’m inland Mongolia.
And then there’s times where I’ll abruptly stop taking a barb camp or finishing a district that would have awarded points until the next age pops. That feels exceptionally “gamey” and I deeply dislike being rewarded for arbitrarily waiting to do good things.
 
They are my least favorite mechanic in Civ6.
Earning era points forces me to repeat the same events/steps regardless of which Civ and play style I’m wanting to choose. I must always build a boat for those points even if I’m inland Mongolia.
And then there’s times where I’ll abruptly stop taking a barb camp or finishing a district that would have awarded points until the next age pops. That feels exceptionally “gamey” and I deeply dislike being rewarded for arbitrarily waiting to do good things.
How exactly does the game “force” you to repeat the same events/steps? Only the players can handcuff themselves into playing the exact same way in each game. You are allowed to play the game however you want and if you happen to get GA points (or Eurekas/Inspirations for that matter), that’s great. If you don’t, that’s fine too. It makes the game much more replayable when you don’t follow the same routine time and time again. I do it all the time and it makes the game less repetitious and more fun for me.
 
How exactly does the game “force” you to repeat the same events/steps?

I think the repetitiveness of Civ 6’s quest system can be overstated, or at least people maybe mean different things when they talk about quests.

Civ 6 has heaps of quests. Eurekas, Era Score, City State Quests, Agendas, and so on. Most of these potential quests are the same each game, particularly Eurekas and Era Score. But what changes is opportunity, timing, why you do the quest at all.

Two examples. First: Build a Quarry. This is the quest for Masonary (Eureka). I probably complete this quest most games, particularly as it’s on the way to get Pyramids. But sometimes I don’t have the opportunity to trigger it - no stone etc, or I have lots of science and I end up hard teching too fast; or I’m doing it to get Walls instead of pyramids, or because I need to improve three tiles for craftsman or just need the production or want to keep the stone for an IZ; and then there’s timing because sometimes I’m in a hurry for Masonary and sometimes I’m not.

Second: build galley. This is an Era Score quest. Build or buy one every game. There are certainly games where I gold buy a galley just to trip my era score into a golden age or whatever. But there are also games when I can’t because I don’t have coastal access or where I’m building them because I actually want to explore the coast.

The quest system works pretty well if you ask me. The game may push me to always build a quarry and a galley pretty much every game, but there are a lot of contingent decisions going into what I do, so I don’t really see that as repetitive. It’s actually often pretty nuanced when I do or don’t do something.
 
I haven’t seen anyone mention this yet: I use the game eras as bookmarks to manage my play time. It’s hard to put the game down sometimes when the game era turns over, but that’s part of the value. Like the end of a chapter in a book, it makes me embrace the tension. When I come back to the game, it feels like I’m starting a new story in the middle of something exciting.

At least, it does for the first few eras. By the Modern Era, things get a little slow and chunky and I just wanna get the damn space ship launched, y’know?
 
I think the repetitiveness of Civ 6’s quest system can be overstated, or at least people maybe mean different things when they talk about quests.

Civ 6 has heaps of quests. Eurekas, Era Score, City State Quests, Agendas, and so on. Most of these potential quests are the same each game, particularly Eurekas and Era Score. But what changes is opportunity, timing, why you do the quest at all.

Two examples. First: Build a Quarry. This is the quest for Masonary (Eureka). I probably complete this quest most games, particularly as it’s on the way to get Pyramids. But sometimes I don’t have the opportunity to trigger it - no stone etc, or I have lots of science and I end up hard teching too fast; or I’m doing it to get Walls instead of pyramids, or because I need to improve three tiles for craftsman or just need the production or want to keep the stone for an IZ; and then there’s timing because sometimes I’m in a hurry for Masonary and sometimes I’m not.

Second: build galley. This is an Era Score quest. Build or buy one every game. There are certainly games where I gold buy a galley just to trip my era score into a golden age or whatever. But there are also games when I can’t because I don’t have coastal access or where I’m building them because I actually want to explore the coast.

The quest system works pretty well if you ask me. The game may push me to always build a quarry and a galley pretty much every game, but there are a lot of contingent decisions going into what I do, so I don’t really see that as repetitive. It’s actually often pretty nuanced when I do or don’t do something.

I confess, my main grief with the 'quest' or 'Eureka/Bonus' system in Civ VI is that in too any cases it is too 'episodic' and it simply reinforces what you are going to do naturally.

Example, from your post: Build a Galley.
IF you have an early city or two on the coast, this is a No Brainer. If you are in the middle of a Pangaea continent, it is, literally, not on your Horizon and meaningless to you no matter how much you might desire the results from it.

I would much rather have a system of Achievements related to natural Needs of your Civ: your first cities are on the coast, you will be 'led' towards naval-sailing-trade Techs and Civics, because that's what a certain (large) percentage of your people are doing constantly. That should extend into areas not currently obvious: IF you want a large sailing navy in the Renaissance, you need a lot of sea trade routes, because your trained sailors and captains will come from the merchant fleet: look at the histories of England and France in that era, in which France had by far the better-designed ships (the first 'real' Frigate, for example) but England, with a vast reservoir of trained seamen to draw on, had the better manned and led warships and Navy.

Things should be related, including 'quests' and 'eurekas' a lot more than they are now.
 
Era bonuses are a great addition to civilization 6. I get all kinds of ages like heroic right after dark ages which aren't that bad because of the new social policy cards that come with some kind of bonus and some kind of curse. Golden ages are awesome but Heroic ages were even better. I also enjoy the drawings when you get era scores.
 
...I both like it and hate it but ultimately just accept it is a game more than a historical recreation.

When I need meticulously crafted historical simulation, that’s what Paradox is for. It is almost never as satisfying as I want it to be.

Like you, I’m not sure if I “like” or “don’t like” the gamey-ness of the eras—but here I am posting on a fan forum while playing the game, so. ‍:hmm:
 
Good concept poor execution

What I really want is more catch up type mechanics and less game is over by the time the Renaissance rolls around situations. Era system has potential, I've modded it to the point where the civ that was clearly winning the game goes through a mini-collapse and then the rest of the game goes quite evenly. The game needs to be more dynamic.

Also the thought occurred to me - maybe score victory should be based on era points alone. Currently the "score" feels kinda arbitrary, to me anyway.
 
Good concept poor execution

What I really want is more catch up type mechanics and less game is over by the time the Renaissance rolls around situations. Era system has potential, I've modded it to the point where the civ that was clearly winning the game goes through a mini-collapse and then the rest of the game goes quite evenly. The game needs to be more dynamic.

"More Dynamic Game" - completely agree, and not just in progression or Eras or Victory - everywhere.

Also the thought occurred to me - maybe score victory should be based on era points alone. Currently the "score" feels kinda arbitrary, to me anyway.

Let's keep an eye on the 'Fame' Victory being proposed in the new Humankind game. They've been pretty chintzy with the details so far, but it seems like it would have a lot of the aspects of a Score Victory, but hopefully more thoroughly thought out because it is, apparently, the ONLY way you can win that game.
 
I just have one issue with it... any overflow of golden age points should be awarded to the next age; they should really fix this.

It makes completely no sense to delay certain things that you can do that are optimal, just so to save up and to not make the next age more challenging to hit the threshold.

Another rather minor issue, dark ages need to be absolutely punishing (to justify the bonuses of a heroic age, a heroic age must be more difficult to obtain than a golden age, not less, as currently is). The loyalty pressure being halved thing is too easy to mitigate.

I would propose a set of dedications for dark ages that is completely separate from the normal age ones and do away with the dark age policy cards altogether (making normal ages still better than dark ages and not the way round):

I.E. monumentality: gain 1 era point per each district constructed, BUT district costs are 25% higher than normal.
Free inquiry: gain 1 era point for each eureka and each science building constructed, BUT eurekas only provide 20% of the research cost and not 40%
Reform the coinage: gain 1 era point per each trade route completed, BUT trade routes provide only half of all yields (rounded up) etc...

So that normal ages have an easier time hitting the next golden age, and a heroic age would be deserving rewards for coming back from a dark age.
 
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