So much... micro-managing.....

[Shmike]

Holy crap, for 1 turn it takes atleast 5-10 minutes sometimes just to get all the units into place. Biggest downfall of 1upt. For discussion value, what do you think could be done to reduce the micro managing?

 

[Malkaviel]

Why would you want to reduce micro-management?

I never even understood the use of automated workers.

Yeh, it's an opinion, but I really can't see why people would enjoy turn based strategy without taking advantage of the micro-managing aspects. Some turns I check each city to see if I can gain a population point faster, or finish a building a turn or 2 sooner...

When I don't want to micro-manage I play starcraft2. That game is more fun to watch stuff move. CiV is math. Recognize.

 

[Shmike]

Yes some people do appreciate it. I'm not against it or I wouldn't be playing this game, it's just it can get really tediouos managing units plus the long loading times. If the loading times were faster between turns, I probably wouldn't have made this post.

 

[lschnarch]

The point is, there is micro-management without benefit and micro-management with benefit.

The first makes a game tedious, the second can add fun to a game, if you're a micro-manager by heart.

Moving units from the western borders to the eastern borders (within you own country) typically falls into the first category. You have to spend some time to manage them, make sure none is stuck in a city, your general is not blocking a worker or a GE on the march (or vice versa) and so on. This just slows down the game without any addition to depth or fun (for most of us).

Controlling your workers by hand or manually adjusting your labourforce within a city screen means that you gain something by doing so.

 

[Shmike]

This just slows down the game without any addition to depth or fun (for most of us).

This. A million times this.

 

[JollyRoger]

Yes some people do appreciate it. I'm not against it or I wouldn't be playing this game, it's just it can get really tediouos managing units plus the long loading times. If the loading times were faster between turns, I probably wouldn't have made this post.

Just be glad you are not the AI, having to wait 5-10 minutes between turns.

 

[alpaca]

Intelligent group movement and abstracted workers like in Call to Power would help a lot in my opinion.

While I'm fighting I actually enjoy moving my pieces around but while moving it's just tedious as Ischnarch described.

Abstracted workers would get rid of them blocking and being blocked all the time and would save a lot of AI processing and human micro-management time to boot. You couldn't capture workers anymore but since that is basically used as an exploit anyways I'm very much willing to pay that price.

 

[Camikaze]

Micromanagement is not in and of itself bad. Tedious micromanagement from which you derive little benefit is not particularly good, but the allowance to micromanage aspects of the game is an important one. What is needed is automation that is a viable alternative to micromanagement (without actually making the micromanagement obsolete).

 

[trueblue]

we get people on this board moaning theres too much micro

we get people on this board moaning theres too little micro

its a joke.


the point of these games is in the detail, in the micro.

 

[ChaplainDMK]

The point is, there is micro-management without benefit and micro-management with benefit.

The first makes a game tedious, the second can add fun to a game, if you're a micro-manager by heart.

Moving units from the western borders to the eastern borders (within you own country) typically falls into the first category. You have to spend some time to manage them, make sure none is stuck in a city, your general is not blocking a worker or a GE on the march (or vice versa) and so on. This just slows down the game without any addition to depth or fun (for most of us).

Controlling your workers by hand or manually adjusting your labourforce within a city screen means that you gain something by doing so.

I like the whole logistics aspect 1 UPT brings, you can't just move your whole army in formation from one border to another, they have to go in convoys over your roads, clogging evreything up and then you have to deploy them in some meaningful formation. In Civ IV you could just throw all your units into a SOD and move with no problem, here your oponent can count on that your army will take some time to come etc.

 

[alpaca]

Micromanagement is not in and of itself bad. Tedious micromanagement from which you derive little benefit is not particularly good, but the allowance to micromanage aspects of the game is an important one. What is needed is automation that is a viable alternative to micromanagement (without actually making the micromanagement obsolete).

You still have the relevant micromanagement: Choosing which improvement goes where, and deploying your units in battle. Getting rid of the boring micromanagement will just leave you more time to do the interesting micromanagement.

we get people on this board moaning theres too much micro

we get people on this board moaning theres too little micro

its a joke.


the point of these games is in the detail, in the micro.

Micro-management does not equal micro-management. Having to negotiate workers through a narrow pass while they block each other is micro - but it's certainly not fun. Cutting blades of grass in my garden with scissors is micro, too, but it's not fun, either. I'd much rather use a lawnmower and have time to plant flowers instead

People are complaining about too much of the bad micromanagement (movement troubles, for instance) and not enough good micromanagement (city buildup is too straightforward)

 

[Celevin]

When I don't want to micro-manage I play starcraft2. That game is more fun to watch stuff move. CiV is math. Recognize.

Man, and I quit Starcraft 2 due to the micro. Every aspect of that game is micro. We're on two different wavelengths entirely.

 

[Kyroshill]

I like the whole logistics aspect 1 UPT brings, you can't just move your whole army in formation from one border to another, they have to go in convoys over your roads, clogging evreything up and then you have to deploy them in some meaningful formation. In Civ IV you could just throw all your units into a SOD and move with no problem, here your oponent can count on that your army will take some time to come etc.

This.

History is rife with blunders and genius when it comes to troop movements... how many armies were slaughtered because other units blocked their path of retreat? how many battles were lost because reinforcements got delayed? and how many wars were won because of logistical brilliance that brought just the right units to the fray at just the right moment?

The way I see it... if it's tedium to move your army from one place to another, there isn't enough reason to do so with alacrity... so bump up your level next game... let the AI throw more troops at you... and you won't be BORED moving your troops... you'll be panicked!

<--- they put the hats on!! LOL

 

[alpaca]

The way I see it... if it's tedium to move your army from one place to another, there isn't enough reason to do so with alacrity... so bump up your level next game... let the AI throw more troops at you... and you won't be BORED moving your troops... you'll be panicked!

And if I play on Deity and it's still tedious to move my army through the backwater of my country? It's still boring and annoying as hell and the importance of it is ridiculously small because usually the best course of action is just to stay on the roads in file.

 

[Kyroshill]

And if I play on Deity and it's still tedious to move my army through the backwater of my country? It's still boring and annoying as hell and the importance of it is ridiculously small because usually the best course of action is just to stay on the roads in file.

1upt is the essence of ciV.... so I'm not sure what your options are

 

[Sonereal]

And if I play on Deity and it's still tedious to move my army through the backwater of my country? It's still boring and annoying as hell and the importance of it is ridiculously small because usually the best course of action is just to stay on the roads in file.

Which is oddly enough, very realistic.

 

[LordTC]

Tedious micro due to bad automated pathfinding kind of kills that. It's also ridiculously unrealistic, that which order I choose to move my guys in when all of them are moving that turn, dramatically effects how far they move. In reality they'd be moving simultaneously so they'd still get in each others way or get out of each others way as the case may be.

Also all the elements you mentioned are tactical elements that have no place in a grand strategy game (which civilization really ought to be). If I wanted to play with full tactics I'd play Total War.

 

[Celevin]

Which is oddly enough, very realistic.

I hate the word realistic.

If you make a game that's fun and challenging, it doesn't matter how it's put together. Put a bunch of story-driven (in Civ's case historical-driven) words behind it, and players will find their own immersion and realism. History has no influence on gameplay mechanics even in a history game. Imagination trumps everything.

 

[Shmike]

I'm not saying the micro management is bad, I play rts games so it doesn't bother me. I'm saying with this poorly optimized game turns taking forever and sluggish movement of the camera, it makes it really frustrating. If the game was smooth as butter, I don't think I'd have a problem.

 

[Sonereal]

Tedious micro due to bad automated pathfinding kind of kills that. It's also ridiculously unrealistic, that which order I choose to move my guys in when all of them are moving that turn, dramatically effects how far they move. In reality they'd be moving simultaneously so they'd still get in each others way or get out of each others way as the case may be.

Also all the elements you mentioned are tactical elements that have no place in a grand strategy game (which civilization really ought to be). If I wanted to play with full tactics I'd play Total War.

Pathfinding problem is pathfinding problem.

I hate the word realistic.

If you make a game that's fun and challenging, it doesn't matter how it's put together. Put a bunch of story-driven (in Civ's case historical-driven) words behind it, and players will find their own immersion and realism. History has no influence on gameplay mechanics even in a history game. Imagination trumps everything.

Ok....and?

The point is is that moving large armies has always been difficult without good infrastructure. This isn't like in CivIV where you can move all your armies anywhere without a problem. Logistics is a strategic problem, not just tactical.

I'm not saying the micro management is bad, I play rts games so it doesn't bother me. I'm saying with this poorly optimized game turns taking forever and sluggish movement of the camera, it makes it really frustrating. If the game was smooth as butter, I don't think I'd have a problem.

True.