So, this game is a war game no matter how you play it.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CivAddict2013, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    It really is. I was playing for a Science Victory with Siam and I won. But the whole game, I had 2 weaker Civs declare war on me. The first one was Suleiman, who I didn't really have a problem with; since I highly out teched him. For the most part, I let my city state ally deal with him.

    But in the middle of the game, Montezuma, declares war on me. Now, at this point, I highly out tech him. I'm using Artillery, while he's using Pikemen and Spearmen. My city state allies and I keep beating him. Yet, the warmonger AI doesn't seem to know when to give up.

    I'm beating him yet, he keeps demanding all my resources and refuses a Peace Treaty. So basically from that point on, it was nothing but constant war with Montezuma. All the way until I built the last spaceship part.

    On another game, I was playing for a OCC cultural victory with Egypt. Things are all going well and I'm building every wonder. Until warmonger AI Greece declares war on me. So anyway, I got a couple City States to declare war on him. So as usual, the city states are kicking Alexander's butt.

    But for some reason, even though Alexander is losing, he keeps demanding all my resources. I seriously just quit this game out of boredom. It's just boring watching your city state allies fighting off Alexander the whole game.

    Main point? The AI needs to know when to give up. A human player would not continue to go to war, when all his units are dying.

    I personally think the aggressive AI is intentional. I think it's to slow you down when you're doing better than the AI.
     
  2. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    You should play BNW instead of Vanilla, the AI is much less aggressive there.

    Unfortunately.

    The poor sod doesn't understand when it's getting beaten when said beating doesn't involve military force. Cultural city flipping? "I'm fine with that thank you, yours truly Oda Nobunaga". Robbing all CS allies? "Suit yourself mate --Ahmad". And so on.

    Your statement is still true, though. Civ is a wargame, always, in a respect - you can never ignore the military element of your empire.
     
  3. Ikas

    Ikas Chieftain

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    Play BNW. In my current game (Immortal difficulty) I haven't been in a single war and it's the atomic era.
     
  4. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    Ah, I may try to get BNW then, if the AI isn't as aggressive.

    It's not so much the AI aggression that's the problem; it's that the AI doesn't seem to know when to give up. It's like they get beaten, then spawn more units, then get beaten again, then make ridiculous demands even though they're losing.
     
  5. bdporter

    bdporter Emperor

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    The problem with them not accepting reasonable peace deals after their invasion has been destroyed still exists in BNW for me, though.
     
  6. Walter R

    Walter R Great Engineer

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    Yes it's odd how the AI sees things sometimes (always?)
    The number of times that I've either DOWd or had a DOW and after several turns lost no units, maybe taken a city or two, and creamed everything in range - and yet my military advisor thinks things are going badly and advises I sue for peace! At first I used to beware the army that must be hiding in the wings, but that hardly ever happens (at the level I play at).
     
  7. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    The AI understands numbers well, but fails to realize that in Civ V it's not just numbers but how they are used. Typically, well (human) vs poorly (AI).
     
  8. Zaldrizes

    Zaldrizes Warlord

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    Was the AI also improved in G&K? I ask only because I rarely get into wars. But then, I also tend to have a decent-sized force and a load of defensive buildings. I'm also pretty nice to people. The one time someone did get belligerent with me in my current game, he caught me by surprise, pouring forth from the desert hills and perfectly surrounded my teeny little upstart Petra city. It was a thing of beauty. Then he asked for peace. I thought it was pretty funny and quite intelligent. Of course I said no, he then sent a few archers by themselves into the open (there's some poor AI), but he made up for it by regrouping at the opposite side of the river with the newly-captured town at his troops' backs. Again, I was impressed. I recaptured the city and he again asked for peace. Both times he offered peace and money. Then he retreated, postured throughout the next few centuries, but never bothered me again. Perhaps this was an anomaly.
     
  9. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    What difficulty do you play at? CiV is a war game no matter what, but that doesn't mean you have to make it boring by playing at a lower difficulty.
     
  10. Socratatus

    Socratatus Emperor

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    I have G&K only and managed to get peace. In my current Campaign I`ve only had one unprovoked war and that was with Atilla. I always play peaceful most of the time. Cause trouble, be dishonourable and that could cause Civs to hate you to the point of war.
     
  11. MerchantCo

    MerchantCo Merchant

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    Then he'll grovel on his feet and give you a darn nice treaty.
     
  12. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    I think some folks have unrealistic expectations of an AI.

    The AI doesn't have the benefit of a human's ability to remember, anticipate, or adapt. Stop expecting it to.

    The AI doesn't take stock of how many units you've destroyed. All it's going to do is look at your current relative military strengths. If it's been producing units as fast as you're killing them, then you kill a hundred units for all it cares. As long as you keep your own army small, and only fight back in a defensive, conservative manner, it's possible you may not change the dynamics of who's strogner versus who's weaker.

    And no, just because war gets declared on the player in the course of the game, that doesn't make it purely a war game. Nor does the fact that the player can't simply choose to neglect his army make it a war game. Rather, it's a game where war is one of the factors to take into account.
     
  13. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    In terms of memory, it can outperform the human. It is superior in the first place, by having more knowledge the player isn't allowed, and can remember state-by-state how the game proceeded. However, otherwise you're right. I've said this in many threads already, but of the player and the AI, one is a sapient supercomputer with unlimited time to complete its turns, and the other is an algorithm that is expected to be very fast and to do a reasonable job playing the game...
     
  14. newarkinvaders

    newarkinvaders Chieftain

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    If you push into the territory of the enemy they are far more willing to give up . If they are attacking and you just sit in your house they gonna try and knock it down
     
  15. vibe96

    vibe96 Warlord

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    i thin the AI has improved. In my G+K game, an out-teched and outnumbered egypt dow me and tried to pillage my iron mines (with their stupid charliots witch was easily killed by my longsword though)
     
  16. Walter R

    Walter R Great Engineer

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    That's not fair, I am not an algorithm and I'm not even very quick. Unfortunately things are not going too well here could I have some of your sugar...
     
  17. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    No way. But I'm sorry this has caused a divide between us.
     
  18. andrew00100

    andrew00100 Chieftain

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    BNW is definitely better for nation builders.
    I personally do enjoy G&K more because nothing much happens until Renaissance unless you got a early warmonger as your neighbour.
    When I first bought BNW, I played 7 games without having a single war.
     
  19. Walter R

    Walter R Great Engineer

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    Hmmm. In current game, my nearest neighbour Austria (that well-known early warmonger) DOWd me shortly after I founded York, somewhere around turn 45. It was great target practice for my archer but quite ridiculous given that the only way through was via an isthmus and she had all of two scary warriors. I guess it all depends on the game...
     
  20. b7fanatix

    b7fanatix Warlord

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    Your own military advisor is a bad joke, panicking and whining constantly in a way that does not befit the uniform, but he seems to analyse the situation in the same way as the AI, ie. Army size only.

    Even I can perhaps come up with a better ratio than that -

    A = % of AI nation's original army destroyed

    B = % of city strength lost in player's city (weakest)

    C = % of player's army lost

    Now, every few turns, check to see if A > B + C

    I.E. If AI lost 50% of it's army and the player has only lost 15% of his city strength and none of his military units, then perhaps the AI is in fact loosing, even if he still outnumbers the player.
     

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