So why is Phi/Ind forbidden when...

[Genv [FP]]

There's no Combo or UU that breaks the game... Name one, And I'll tell you how it can easily be countered.

 

[AfterShafter]

There's no Combo or UU that breaks the game... Name one, And I'll tell you how it can easily be countered.

The meaning of "broken" isn't "cannot be countered." Someone goes the Ind/Phil leader? Go Incan - cram some Quechas down the throat of our wonder-happy friend. End of story, and all of the sudden your "broken" Civ is broken in half. If "broken" equals "cannot be countered" by your definition, then it is painfully obvious that Ind/Phil isn't broken.

Incans on duel maps, Praet rushes on any maps where the CPU doesn't prepare for a praet rush (IE - any map, ever), Darius of the Dutch/Portugese on island oriented maps, Boudica of Rome... All arguably broken - all frequently argued to be broken - and all perfectly able to be countered. Just like ind/phil.

If there is currently no trait combo that breaks the game, Ind/Phil would not be an exception. Unless the leader was stacked with an incredible early defense UU, they'd be easy to rush with one of the other "broken" combos or, heck, just war chariots or something. And even if you gave Ind/Phil the best UU and UB in the game, it is still absolutely true that no-one ever has to play this leader unless they want to. And if they want to... Well, then who are we to tell them they can't steamroll the CPU for fun? Are the CPU's feelings getting hurt when this happens or something? Are yours on its behalf?

 

[Iranon]

PHI doesn't give you twice the Great People, far from it (GPP have greatly diminishing returns). The problem wouldn't be having 10 Great Prophets in the Renaissance, the problem would be recovering too quickly from the investment in the Classical Age.

A judicious bulb or two could put one into the position to build the rest of the wonders easily, the rest would be settled to give one a powerful, undisruptable economy that doesn't even require a lot of land (greatly facilitating defence). Maybe the developers felt that cruising to an easy victory without regard for land shouldn't be possible.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the trait combo broke OCCs in half.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

While I agree with everything else AfterShafter says above, I gotta disagree with the idea that there is a counter to Boudica of Rome. If the player is Boudica of Rome and the other conditions for a Praet rush are met (ie a decent production city and possession of Iron), there is no real counter to them. Unless the player decides to play a peaceful game... WTH would you do that for if you're going out of your way to get Agg/Chm praetorians?

Think praetorians (str 8, innate 10% city raid, +45% CRI/II, and +10% Combat I from AGG) = 13.2. A decent production city and you can have a huge army of these before anyone even founds Judaism. The best defense you'll get vs. a Praetorian like that before feudalism is (realistically) a shock promoted axeman (str 4 + 75% melee +10% combat + 25% fortify +25% hill +40% culture) equaling + 170% = 10.8.

So 13.2 vs. 10.8. And that's incredibly situational being on a hill in the capital (40% culture). So you sacrifice 2 or 3 praets and now the rest will take the capital.

Even with a protective nation:
Archer CGI/II/III/Drill I = 3 + 50% city + 50% innate/bonus hill + 75% CGI/II/III + 25% fortify + 40% cultural equals + 240% = 10.2 So there it is again 13.2 vs. 10.2 isn't that hard to overcome

After steamrolling a civ or two pre-construction, you can grab construction and finish off any other enemies on your continent preferably keeping 1 decent techer alive to trade with. Expand like crazy and focus on economy. Then once grabbing rifling (should be post-astronomy), send a large contingent of upgraded CR I/II/III combat I possible I/II praets that are now riflemen over to you intercontinental victims.

I don't really see a counter for that. On really high levels, if a good techer like Gandhi/Mansa Musa is on another continent and haven't been in a war yet, you may have an issue with being behind in tech, but if you play on average levels (noble/prince) there is no stopping Boudica of Rome.

 

[AfterShafter]

Two factors you're forgetting Blitz. One, Praets don't get 10% innate city raid like Swords do - I'm looking at the Civilopedia right now. Two, Praets cost 45 hammers, axes cost 35. So, those Praets are a wee bit lower than you're presenting them, and there will be a couple more axemen kicking around based on production costs than there are Praets coming in.

Also, rushing has a lot of qualities which don't factor into the numbers. First, you need iron working and iron - the iron isn't always a given, and the Praets take time. Second, when you actually get these things, travel time factors in - if you strike out with 6 Praets, in the time it takes to get to the target city, buddy will have built more axemen (if he's preparing for a Praet rush) which means you will be fighting even larger numbers. Third, if you pick Boudica of Rome and the opponent is far off from you or, heaven forbid, on another island, then you may have just saddled yourself with traits that don't amount to anything but economic disadvantage for a long time.

I'm not saying this isn't a nasty and very hard to counter situation, but the odds are a bit better than you're making them sound with just number crunching. There are a few pretty major risks picking Boudica of Rome - either all those Praets and no place/too far to go with them, or no Praets at all... Or just that the guy spams so many cheaper axemen that your initial rush gets overwhelmed.

Now, there will be times when you get hit by that Praet wall and you could not possibly have survived it - you have no copper, lower production, whatever - but that's the nature of Civ. You can get screwed by war chariots the same way, you can be in a desert craphole while a Mansa Musa player is in a fertile flood plain/jungle paradise teching you into the ground, you can get locked onto a little island with Tokes while the rest of the world prances around holding hands and teching you into the stone age. Boudica of Rome definitely means you're in for a meat grinder early game, but I really don't believe it's completely unbeatable when you factor in the situations above. And honestly, who picks Gandhi on a 1 v 1 VS Boudica of Rome? You pick Churchill of the Native Americans and cram uber protective archers and dog soldiers down his throat. If the map is big enough that you may be out of rush range, then the Boudica player is gambling just as much as you are.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Two factors you're forgetting Blitz. One, Praets don't get 10% innate city raid like Swords do - I'm looking at the Civilopedia right now. Two, Praets cost 45 hammers, axes cost 35. So, those Praets are a wee bit lower than you're presenting them, and there will be a couple more axemen kicking around based on production costs than there are Praets coming in.

Also, rushing has a lot of qualities which don't factor into the numbers. First, you need iron working and iron - the iron isn't always a given, and the Praets take time. Second, when you actually get these things, travel time factors in - if you strike out with 6 Praets, in the time it takes to get to the target city, buddy will have built more axemen (if he's preparing for a Praet rush) which means you will be fighting even larger numbers. Third, if you pick Boudica of Rome and the opponent is far off from you or, heaven forbid, on another island, then you may have just saddled yourself with traits that don't amount to anything but economic disadvantage for a long time.

I'm not saying this isn't a nasty and very hard to counter situation, but the odds are a bit better than you're making them sound with just number crunching. There are a few pretty major risks picking Boudica of Rome - either all those Praets and no place/too far to go with them, or no Praets at all... Or just that the guy spams so many cheaper axemen that your initial rush gets overwhelmed.

Now, there will be times when you get hit by that Praet wall and you could not possibly have survived it - you have no copper, lower production, whatever - but that's the nature of Civ. You can get screwed by war chariots the same way, you can be in a desert craphole while a Mansa Musa player is in a fertile flood plain/jungle paradise teching you into the ground, you can get locked onto a little island with Tokes while the rest of the world prances around holding hands and teching you into the stone age. Boudica of Rome definitely means you're in for a meat grinder early game, but I really don't believe it's completely unbeatable when you factor in the situations above. And honestly, who picks Gandhi on a 1 v 1 VS Boudica of Rome? You pick Sitting Bull and cram uber protective archers and dog soldiers down his throat. If the map is big enough that you may be out of rush range, then the Boudica player is gambling just as much as you are.

The AI never builds enough axeman to counter a massive and purposeful praetorian rush. Also, your argument is contingent on the AI having copper and getting to BW quick enough to have a lot of axemen.

As to the issue of lacking iron:
Well, if i choose Boudica of Rome, I'm not gonna keep playing if I don't have any access to iron. Rush IW specifically for the reasons laid out here and if none is anywhere near the capital, I'm abandoning the game. There's no reason to play a Boudica of Rome if I can't utilize Praets (basically the whole reason of choosing unrestricted leaders in this case)

OCC has coding built in so that you have no choice but to play that kind of game. Well, boudica of Rome is the same type of deal. I wanted that "kind of game" and me restarting if not getting Iron is my own little built in code

 

[AfterShafter]

Remind me to never play multiplayer with you... Big jerk

 

[TheMeInTeam]

While I agree with everything else AfterShafter says above, I gotta disagree with the idea that there is a counter to Boudica of Rome. If the player is Boudica of Rome and the other conditions for a Praet rush are met (ie a decent production city and possession of Iron), there is no real counter to them. Unless the player decides to play a peaceful game... WTH would you do that for if you're going out of your way to get Agg/Chm praetorians?

Think praetorians (str 8, innate 10% city raid, +45% CRI/II, and +10% Combat I from AGG) = 13.2. A decent production city and you can have a huge army of these before anyone even founds Judaism. The best defense you'll get vs. a Praetorian like that before feudalism is (realistically) a shock promoted axeman (str 4 + 75% melee +10% combat + 25% fortify +25% hill +40% culture) equaling + 170% = 10.8.

So 13.2 vs. 10.8. And that's incredibly situational being on a hill in the capital (40% culture). So you sacrifice 2 or 3 praets and now the rest will take the capital.

Even with a protective nation:
Archer CGI/II/III/Drill I = 3 + 50% city + 50% innate/bonus hill + 75% CGI/II/III + 25% fortify + 40% cultural equals + 240% = 10.2 So there it is again 13.2 vs. 10.2 isn't that hard to overcome

After steamrolling a civ or two pre-construction, you can grab construction and finish off any other enemies on your continent preferably keeping 1 decent techer alive to trade with. Expand like crazy and focus on economy. Then once grabbing rifling (should be post-astronomy), send a large contingent of upgraded CR I/II/III combat I possible I/II praets that are now riflemen over to you intercontinental victims.

I don't really see a counter for that. On really high levels, if a good techer like Gandhi/Mansa Musa is on another continent and haven't been in a war yet, you may have an issue with being behind in tech, but if you play on average levels (noble/prince) there is no stopping Boudica of Rome.

1. You won't get CR II in the classical age without battles or a GG settled in a city. You get CR I combat I prats, or combat II prats, or combat/shock prats.

2. Shock axes in cities will definitely cause problems, so aggressive leaders can hold. Axes are cheaper than prats, and can probably swarm them also.

3. Since we're talking unrestricted leaders, any aggressive leader of native america would clobber booty call of rome. Hell, even sitting bull would - dog men are cheap.

If you're talking SP on levels below monarch, the AI can't even handle warriors right, let alone prats or any other halfway decent tactic. In MP, any combination of axes/defensive terrain can make life hell for prats. Once construction comes along, it evens it out even further - axes can easily beat prats if they're damaged even a tiny bit.

 

[King Flevance]

There's no Combo or UU that breaks the game... Name one, And I'll tell you how it can easily be countered.

OK I am playing as Rome - you are the Celts. We both rush for bronze. (we both get it.) I then begin going for my praets while building up an army of axes. I am playing as Genghis Khan Agg/Imp. Counter me.

Scenario 2. I am playing a Phi/Ind leader as America. Counter me.

 

[AfterShafter]

OK I am playing as Rome - you are the Celts. We both rush for bronze. (we both get it.) I then begin going for my praets while building up an army of axes. I am playing as Genghis Khan Agg/Imp. Counter me.

Ctrl-w - easy!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

1. You won't get CR II in the classical age without battles or a GG settled in a city. You get CR I combat I prats, or combat II prats, or combat/shock prats.

2. Shock axes in cities will definitely cause problems, so aggressive leaders can hold. Axes are cheaper than prats, and can probably swarm them also.

3. Since we're talking unrestricted leaders, any aggressive leader of native america would clobber booty call of rome. Hell, even sitting bull would - dog men are cheap.

If you're talking SP on levels below monarch, the AI can't even handle warriors right, let alone prats or any other halfway decent tactic. In MP, any combination of axes/defensive terrain can make life hell for prats. Once construction comes along, it evens it out even further - axes can easily beat prats if they're damaged even a tiny bit.

1) We're talking Noble/Prince since the playing field is even at that stage. 1 battle with a barbarian will give CRI/II/Combat I praetorians

2) Shock axes were addressed. 10.8 vs. 12.4 isn't all that special. So you sacrifice a few weaker units in place of catapults, now your praets rule again. I also gave absolute optimal conditions for the axeman which isn't the average.

3) Maybe AGG native america would be problem, and that is contingent on being on the same continent as Native Americans. That's a 1 in 33 chance. Too situational for this discussion. So they are the only ones you don't war with right away. No big deal. That's not a counter. In fact, making friends with Native Americans and attacking all the others sounds like a great idea.

MP is totally different. I never play and never will play MP. It seems that war is impossible to avoid and how can you trust anyone? If I'm going to win and have been friends with someone all game, nothing says they won't DoW on me along with all the others to prevent me from winning. I don't like that.

 

[JujuLautre]

Prat C1/CR1 against fortified shock axe, 20% culture: 8,8 vs 5(1+0,5+0,25+0,2+0,1-0,2) = 8,8 vs 9,25, you lose.
with CR2 you can get to 8,8 vs 8,25; but if you say one battle with a barbarian can give CR2, then one battle with a barbarian can give the axe combat 2, which makes 8,8 vs 8,75; *very* slight advantage.

Prat C1/CR1/CR2 against bowman CG 1: 8,8 vs 3(1+0,5+0,5+0,25+0,20+0,25-0,45) = 6,75. now consider you can get 2 of them against each prat.

I did not even consider hills or 40% culture. Prats are good, sure, but far from invincible.

 

[dwhee]

Tokugawa is AGG/PRO. While PRO is pretty useless, especially in multiplayer, AGG/PRO gives you the best riflemen in the game just about. If you gave the Japanese one leader with these insanely powerful traits and another with PHI/IND, they'd be the most over-powered civ in the game.

And PHI/IND is completely different from the traits you mentioned above. They compliment one another directly, and there'd be no reason for that leader to do anything else other than spam wonders and farm gp's.

 

[Jerrymander]

Ind/Phi would still break the game.

NO IT WOULDN'T

you know why

BECAUSE I'M A BEAR THAT'S WHY

 

[King Flevance]

Tokugawa is AGG/PRO. While PRO is pretty useless, especially in multiplayer, AGG/PRO gives you the best riflemen in the game just about. If you gave the Japanese one leader with these insanely powerful traits and another with PHI/IND, they'd be the most over-powered civ in the game.

And PHI/IND is completely different from the traits you mentioned above. They compliment one another directly, and there'd be no reason for that leader to do anything else other than spam wonders and farm gp's.

He had better guard them. Going up against an aggressive civ who has decided to do a 20 unit rush (axes or chariots) early on you means game over. If you somehow manage to last past the ancient ages I would bet you didn't get many wonders because you had to focus on military early. This trait combo seems overpowered in the hands of a human because ANY trait combo is more powerful in the hands of a human than an AI. But that's where multiplayer comes in. Or increasing difficulty level.
Handing me IND/PHI is not going to cause me to win my first deity game. Which I don't think it would do for anybody. It may help some people beat deity again. I would be surprised if it took me from monarch to emporer. I play large maps no matter the difficulty level. And larger maps mean bigger stacks. Now that is just a little snippet of how I play though.

Prats are good, sure, but far from invincible.

The trick about praets you are only allowed to use soft counters on them for a long time. (Where as the sword and other sword UUs get countered by axes.) Their first hard counter does not show up until crossbows. A crossbow kills a praet pretty much. but your only hope in the ancient era is an axe which can kill one if you level him good and right. Or elephants which are slightly stronger than an axe.
Maces kill them too but you can get crossbows quicker. You better hope you have iron though. I dont know what their req is in 3.17 but this is one reason I made crossbows not require any resources.

 

[Gumbolt]

The AI never builds enough axeman to counter a massive and purposeful praetorian rush.

Thankfully in my games they never build enough Prets either to launch a serious attack. Quite an ironic balance really.

I think the Ai always tries to build a balanced SOD. Knights, horse, trebs, mace, crossbowmen, longbowmen and pikemen. The idea being whatever you throw at it the AI stack survives. What the Ai fails to predict is the human player will work to a units strength.

I suppose thats why some games need 34 AI. Well you have to make up for the rests mistakes.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

lol right on man. Yeah, I never really see a massive AI praetorian stack. Thank god for that! But I guess I spam enough axemen to deal

 

[Gumbolt]

I sometimes wonder if the Ai move towards horse units if they see you building lots of axes. They do like there mounted units.

As long as you have chariots the dog soldier shouldnt be an issue. Either that or your spamming archers to defend your cities. Archers on hills vs dog soldier.

In fact Dog soldiers are a good reply to prets.