Social Engineering

[TROOPERBLUE]

Based on the social engineering options, not considering allying with any Faction, Futuristc Societies, or starting with any Faction, which is best?

For Politics: I wouldnt choose Democratic because of the -Support unless i wanted to 'cover' that later when i have researched Power. I like to have units. So that leaves either Fundamentalist or Police State.
For Economy: Free Market is hard to pass up with the +2 Econ for all those non conquerers, but today I feel like a Conquerer, so i will pass it up! And because i dont want Democractic Politics for the Effic. I wont choose Planned because of its minus to effic... I dont want a overall minus effic rating... So i pick Green.
For Values: Ill assume im at war, not a peaceful Morganite, so Ill pass up Wealth as an option (playing it safe)... Also, since, i dont have the Hunter-seeker Project, im not a wonder builder, generally speaking, Ill pass up Knowledge because of probe teams -- remember i am at war prospectively... Also, since i dont want to cover up the probe with Fundamentalist which will leave me with only +1 Morale -- I will pick Power, so I will have a +2 Morale rating.

Now back to Politics, I was considering either Police State or Fundamentalist -- What do i want? More Police and Support or Morale and Probe.... Since I pased up a Planned Economy because i passed up Democracy (they go together) I will pick Police State because I picked Green (they go together)... the - to Research is something i dont need, but the effic. minus i can deal with because i picked green. If I would have picked Funamentalist that goes together with Knowledge, which is +1 Morale. However, since Power has a - to Industry, I can deal with because I have units! Also, since I need some Research to accomplish my Power objective, which is +2 Morale I have to pass up Fundamentalist. Fundamentalist and Power dont go together because of the - to Research, but what i am comparing is Fundamentalist Knowledge Green to Police Power Green and I like the Police Power Green better.

So, my opinion (my final answer) is Police State, Green, and Power!Please state your opinion and the Social Engineering Options that you would choose.

 

[Stylesrj]

Democracy, Green, Wealth and Cybernetic, later on the middle Future society.
I play on the easy difficulties, and I can build many wonders to remove the negative effects of some of those things like cybernetic. However, I do suffer in the Morale department, but I'm a warmonger near the end and all that money DOES matter when I'm rushing armies of gravships and drop soldiers and ships.
When I get to my first Transcendant Thought, I put 100% into ECONOMY and techs still come in like 1 per 2 turns (but at some points, it's 2 every turn!) and I watch my cash levels rise to extremes..... it's great.

Anyway, so my final choices are Democracy (profitable!) Green (at the end, more profitable than Free Market) Wealth (Who cares University and Spartans! DIE!!) and Eudomanic (Cybernetic gives knowledge bonuses and I don't need them. Besides that, Eudomanic gives more money)

I should really get a change of strategy when I feel like going up a level....

 

[Zoinker]

There are no "bad" social choices per se. It all depends on what faction you are, the situation you're in and what your short and long term goals are.

---Politics---

*Police State is a good war choice since it will be easier to keep the Drones in check and your army won't weigh your industry down as much. Couple it with green to get rid of effic hit. Police State + Planned is suicide unless you're Yang on the expansion pack.

*Democracy is a good choice if you intend to settle down and focus on infrastructure as it helps bases grow faster and the support penalty only really hurts if you got a huge army, which would be during war.

*Fundy should never be run unless you can and intend to use that +2 to Probes. Steal techs from your enemies until you are at an equal level and that Morale will give you the fundamental edge (pun intended, don't hit me).
Should not be used during peacetime.

---Economy---

*Free Market is great if you need to get cash fast or gain tech superiority (energy helps research) but should be avoided like the plague during war due to drones going crazy (even If you run Police state with it, you'll get a drone for each deployed combat unit unless you got natural police bonuses or thought control future society) and enemies going native will tear you appart.

*Planned is a far better war economy due to faster growing bases (more people = faster production) and industry bonus which allows you to pump out units faster, but efficiency hit makes it an unpopular builder choice. Still, if coupled with Dem (which negates the penalty), it can make your bases populate at an insane pace which is good if you tend to expand fast early on.

*Green is good due to efficiency bonus and is absolutely obligatory if you go native (i.e. rely on mind worms etc. instead of normal combat units) since the planet rating affects your ability at PSI combat. The growth penalty can be overcome by DEM, giving you PARADIGM ECONOMY (best efficiency rating) and the support penalty from DEM won't hurt you much since you'll be harvesting your army from the fungus with empath scouts.

---values---

*Power is a two edged sword. It is utterly useless during peacetime, and the industry hit can be painful during wartime. Best bet is to build up huge reserves using market and/or wealth, then switch to power (and as far away from market as you can!) and BUY two or three dozens of 1337 up to date units to blitz the enemy when he or she leasts expects it. Switch to Fundy while you're at it for added carnage.

*Knowledge is your best bet if the strategy is to outtech them into submission. The efficiency bonus is good to, although redundant if you're running DEM + GREEN as well unless you got a natural effic penalty like Lal.
The probe hit can be overcome by stacking your units and keeping defensive probes (probe teams with armour) in your bases, although getting the Hunter Seeker will also help, and you won't use probes for much else.

*Wealth is a great builder choice and splendid when combined with Market, and the morale hit won't hurt as long as you don't train all of your army while running it. Going to war while running Wealth + market is the kiss of death.

I won't go into the Future Societies since by the time you get to them you'll either be on the verge of winning or have an empire established enough for it's penalties not to hurt you as much.

I hope this was helpful and apologize for the length, I just get so freaking obsessed when it comes to this game.

 

[TROOPERBLUE]

I think there are some bad SE choices (in combination) as well as some good ones (in combination) You are right, by saying it does depend on faction and situation.... but lets say you have to make a definative choice (and you cant change it) once set its set, because the cost of changing it back and forth can really add up over time.

For example, in another thread, I was doing some analyzing and i discovered that there are 3 basic strategies you can use based on Social Engineering, and they are as follows:

1. Police State, Green, and Knowledge. (Mind Worms)
2. Democratic, Planned, and Power. (Hard Military)
3. Fundamentalist, Free Market, and Wealth. (Probe Teams and Cash)

Without considering the Faction, I think my answer still stands the same.... (2/3 long term Mind worm strategy -- Planet, and 1/3 short term Impact Rovers with the Morale bonus)..... as an illustration! Police State, Green, and Power. But, after picking a faction, i would think I would specialize into 1 of these 3 strategies.

Some bad SE Combinations are: All the other combinations that are not one of these 3 above specialized into a strategy. Unless, you can prove otherwise.... I would like to see some of those combinations (with your strategy). That would help! Thanks!

 

[Stylesrj]

I play on low difficulties, but my choices are the same-

Democratic (to counter Green's anti-growth)
Green (Mind worm capturing, efficiency)
Wealth (MONEY! Glorious money! Greed is good!)

It might not get me in favour with the other leaders (Morgan hates me , Sister Miriam hates my "godless" Democracy and Santiago hates my gathering of "wealth") but it gets my job done. The efficiency really removes those negative effects of switching my labs to economy at the Future Tech end of the game and I'm rolling in the cash anyway.
If I run into money troubles, as a last resort, I can switch to a free market for a turn to boost my economy up (although, in one turn, I once got a lot of fungus growth and drone riots in 75% of my cities! ) or I can build a lot of power transmitters so I can forget the money issues.

I use these strategies for any side that allows them. Caretakers, Usurpers, Cult of Planet, Morgan Industries (that's right! Morgan running under Green!), University, Pirates, anything I want will use those same SE choices. Anything less gets me less money, money to which I can use to rush Secret Projects or rush military units or structures needed.

Free Market is just not right. A -5 police rating and -3 ecology? Seriously, economically, it's great, but since I'm usually conquering and I need cash, I don't use Free Market.

I really need to play on something higher than Citizen...

 

[TROOPERBLUE]

I play on low difficulties, but my choices are the same-

Democratic (to counter Green's anti-growth)
Green (Mind worm capturing, efficiency)
Wealth (MONEY! Glorious money! Greed is good!)

It is my opinion that this combination, although good if you dont care about the -support from Democratic, has also a disadvantadge militarily with the -Morale by choose the Wealth option. My best guess would these choice best fit a Morganite because Wealth gives the Morganite an additional bonus that is +1 Energy per square vs. The normal Energy bonus other factions may recieve which is +1 Energy per base.

not get me in favour with the other leaders (Morgan hates me , Sister Miriam hates my "godless" Democracy and Santiago hates my gathering of "wealth") but it gets my job done. The efficiency really removes those negative effects of switching my labs to economy at the Future Tech end of the game and I'm rolling in the cash anyway.
If I run into money troubles, as a last resort, I can switch to a free market for a turn to boost my economy up (although, in one turn, I once got a lot of fungus growth and drone riots in 75% of my cities! ) or I can build a lot of power transmitters so I can forget the money issues.

I use these strategies for any side that allows them. Caretakers, Usurpers, Cult of Planet, Morgan Industries (that's right! Morgan running under Green!), University, Pirates, anything I want will use those same SE choices. Anything less gets me less money, money to which I can use to rush Secret Projects or rush military units or structures needed.

Free Market is just not right. A -5 police rating and -3 ecology? Seriously, economically, it's great, but since I'm usually conquering and I need cash, I don't use Free Market.

Yeah... Free Market isnt all what its cracked up to be, unless you have lots of formers and.... Morale to defeat the mind worms for additional $. Its all about the $ for this strategy to work, but it can work!

I really need to play on something higher than Citizen...

If you want a challenge, then i agree... but i am just trying to analyze the choices. Hope this helps! Feel Free to analyze mine.

 

[Stylesrj]

I can tell you though, Free Market is not the way to go for me. When I begin a game, I like to take over the bad guy's first city with my scout patrol, while I rush a garrison in.
Morale bonuses, who cares about the Morale (of course it's good though!), I run a Eudomanic society, meaning quite a low Morale bonus, but I back it up with constant warmongering and rushing gravships with PSI defence, but Wealth is used for the cash bonus. I ignore the morale loss, as it's only 2 levels and barely anyone attacks me (mind worms can't stand Hypnotic Trance on my garrisons) with a good enough force (pah, your Chaos Gun is no match for my Antimatter Plating!)

Your choices are fine, but I'm more in the cash department and when you've got a lot of cash, a good environment and an army of mind worms from the environment (and less fungus growth) you can make a lot of money, more than drone rioting cities, rampant fungus growth and high morale. With a lot of cash and Mind Worms and Locusts, morale isn't an issue as you can rush the enemy and win!

Still, I always stick to a low difficulty, so I can't really have a good opinion... right?

 

[TROOPERBLUE]

you can have a good opinion, even at a low difficulty level.... it may not be perfectly tested and tried at a higher difficulty, but it is still an opinion and it does count! Just discussing theory with social engineering here.

 

[Major Scientist]

As a Free Drones Player:

Democratic (more people, more colonies, efficency is always good)
Planned (the Industrial bonuses can't be topped and are lethel with Dormai)
Wealth (MONEY IS POWER!)

 

[nimling]

Politics:
For my playing style, I usually pick demo as soon as my initial colony sprawl is complete. I tend to play with builder tendencies, with a small attacking force for self-defense (against the AI, a lone Impact Rover can dispatch far more of an invasion force than its cost indicates). In the mid-late game, boreholes and a strong economy (boosted by demo's efficiency) make up for the support hit.

Economy:
Market is awesome in the early game, if the AI is kept at arm's length. It is even better when sucking up to other factions, and combined with Wealth or Morgan's innate bonus (uber commerce).
Planned is necessary for easy pop booming (with demo), and can crank out production faster in the early game with any setting save Police State (Hive excluded).
Green, however, is the best economy from the mid-game onward, where a good efficiency rating can outperform a good economy rating. It also has the benefit of not causing unrest, and boosting psi-attacking units. Its' lone negative is irrelevant post-boom. I've modded Green in my games to carry a -2 support penalty on top of what it already has, and it is still viable in the same timeframe.

Values:
Depends on my diplomatic status, and my level of security against probe teams. Usually aim for knowledge of wealth, and almost never use Power. Survival is one I would use if my probe defense sucks, and I don't want wealth's morale hit or Power's industry penalty. If I'm not on good terms with the AI, and am not a Morganite, wealth is out of the question.

Combos I tend to use:
Dem/Market/Wealth - uber pacifist economy, esp. as the Morgans. With psych investment, this allows for popbooming without Planned.
Dem/Green/any - paradigm economy, can set my sliders as I please. Usually what I run when efficiency becomes vital to a good economy. As Gaia, I need only run Green for that effect, but I'm usually running Dem unless I'm in a war. With the PKs I'm almost always running with knowledge. I almost always stick with this from the middle game onward.
Dem/Planned/any - pop boom. nuff said.
Fundy/Green/Power - Terrible at building stuff, but once the army is finished... if I have the Command Nexus and Bioenhancement Centers/Cyborg Factory, Fundy can be replaced with Police State or even Dem (if support is a non-issue). With the Spartans this is a nigh unstoppable juggernaut.
Police/Market/Power - This can only be useful if I'm the Spartans, or built the Ascetic Virtues, and have an SSC in place to reduce the efficiency hit.
Police/Planned/any - Only good with the Hive. Allows them to build fast-growing cities and pacify them on the cheap, though it suffers from not being able to popboom.
Frontier/Planned/Wealth - When mineral production is vital, as it is with early-game projects, this is v. useful. As the University I typically beeline for the requisite techs, and get the Virtual World asap.

 

[Norbert]

Politics-wise, a builder build order (fast Bio techs) and the Living refinery makes Support the most worthless trait by far (this is on the easier difficulties, but i can't imagine it being any different anywhere else. This is true even for the man you'd think Democracy would hurt the most, morgan: fast clean reactors makes the whole excercies intellectual. If it were up to me, I'd remove clean reactors from SMAC entirely, or at least make it apply only to land chassis: i'd trade the smaller armies in the game for better realism and not so much Democracy OPness. Is there a mod 4 that? If so, link me, baby, link me! That being said....

POLITICS. This is by far the most easy choice, The ONLY civs that should EVER consider using Police State are xpack Yang...(duh) and fast rush Morgan, which I feel is about as viable as builder Miriam... The -2 efficiency just HURTS, and forget about competitive use of Planned. What should be the primary bonus, additional police, is good but weakened by Non-lethal Methods and the fact that (at least on easy) you can mitigate Drones by other means (specialists, anyone?) And support...see above please. Every time I use fundy, even as Miriam, it just sucks the fun out of everything, +3 turns per tech at bare minimum, and the + probes just don't seem worth it. Make the Morale +2, and maybe I'll consider it, until then, Command Nexus + probe spam for the win. At least probes are clean, so you don't have to worry about PS... And, of course...Democracy. Clean reactors are like a "Network Backbone" for Democ, don't be all like "but clean units cost more up front", it's called Fusion power... Instant pop boom with Planned or Eudamonia, paradigm econ with green, or baseline inefficiency WITH PLANNED...(insta-boom+ 1 industry ftw.) More on econ/values etc, I've always wanted to mod SE, but don't know how...