Social Progress System (new Tech System for WTP / Civ4Col) [ACCEPTED]

[Nenos]

Yeah, for example we will see in the early game ( so around before 1700 ) more veteran Soldier, Dragoons, Conquistatores, some with good riding skill, light canons. And on the sea more Caraval and tiny trader ships. by the way the sloop is to mighty. And in the cities there are no more factories.

 

[raystuttgart]

One idea came up: unlock by year.

The thing I do not like about it is simply that there is no Player interaction involved.
Thus there is also no feeling of "achievement", no "competition", no ...

Also stuff like e.g. getting "Advances" like e.g. "Tobacco Planting" from Native contact would not work.
Also there would be no chance to e.g. trade Techs and there would also be no Building, no ...

Basically all the cool gameplay involved by Techs which we know from Civ4BTS would be gone ...
It would be a boring "just sit and wait" feature ... and until then lock stuff behind barriers without any chance to get it faster.

----

The effort is not to implement the system how to get them.

The effort is simply in having all the Techs designed and balanced.
(So this is the actual prolbme why this was never implemented.)

 

[Schmiddie]

I agree with you ray,

but as far as I remember DoANE has implemented a similar system. However, I never analyzed it in more detail. Nevertheless, I liked the idea that you need to discover the plant at first.

 

[raystuttgart]

I agree with you ray,

My main point is basically that if we implement "Techs" (or however we call it) it should be a feature involving player actions.
Not just sitting and waiting until a turn timer is over ... it would be boring and predictable and the same every single game.

 

[Nightinggale]

My main point is basically that if we implement "Techs" (or however we call it) it should be a feature involving player actions.
Not just sitting and waiting until a turn timer is over ... it would be boring and predictable and the same every single game.

That was my initial thinking too, but since the idea was brought up, I figured it would be best to add it here as input for brainstorming/debate.

If nothing else, it revives this thread.

as far as I remember DoANE has implemented a similar system. However, I never analyzed it in more detail. Nevertheless, I liked the idea that you need to discover the plant at first.

It shouldn't be too difficult to implement that. It would be something like adding a tech tag to bonus info and then add code in the DLL to test for that whenever a plot is explored. Since it's only triggering when new plots are explored, performance shouldn't be an issue.

However I'm not sure I like that approach because how will it affect a game where some bonus just happen to not be present?

The effort is not to implement the system how to get them.

The effort is simply in having all the Techs designed and balanced.
(So this is the actual problem why this was never implemented.)

Yeah we have a problem, which is the opposite of how ideas usually is. We have the code to get it working, but we just don't know (yet) how to integrate it into the gameplay in a way, which makes it feel at home in the game.

 

[Isabelxxx]

Speaking about player interaction, how social progress diffusion would be handled?

i.e. as far as I have read, if you do X your nation becomes better at X and thus social progress is unlocked for X category.
BUT what happens for the other categories? Is there some catch-up mechanism?

One problem I see is indirect snowball effects. If you focus on military category you become better than the rest on military aspects. Ok.
BUT there should be a minimum social progress at other categories even if you do nothing at them, otherwise some playstyles will be indirectly handicapped due to not having access to specific advancements (professions? Units? promotions?).

Also social progress without diffusion, minimum points production per turn and a way to unlock them at specific years (or just adjust the minimum points to account for this) may also impose a double penalization. You are already spending -indirectly- production and resources to focus on a category, but I suppose specific categories will improve production and resources... so it would be counterproductive to focus on non-production categories... since that way you will be reducing your economic system now AND reducing your possibility to improve it on the future.

Since the premise was to give options to players, some thought must be put on this... otherwise it will just become another layer of complexity without real choices. It would be simply better to first focus on production to then expand the other categories, instead of a decision to made according to the context.

Europa Universalis (maybe Stellaris is the same) has a similar Social progress system for 4 or 5 categories which unlock units, buildings, etc. Thing is level cost is reduced every year, and nations of your same culture further reduce the cost. At some point you simply advance on every category no matter what you do. But you can focus on one of them by spending income... (applied to Col, it would be spending production creating units, time exploring, whatever...).

 

[raystuttgart]

@Isabelxxx:
Nice to see you around again.

 

[codiac]

I like this idea. One issue I have with unlocking military units is there is currently no _easy_ way to upgrade a unit to a better unit type ... or if there is I have completely missed it

[/URL]

Usually I just wait until I can equip the unit type I want, if that is locked then it would be nice to be able to easily (not necessarily cheaply) upgrade units when the new types become available.

 

[raystuttgart]

Land Combat in RaR are handled by 2 concepts mostly:

1) Professions --> There is no "Upgrade" necessary, you just change the Profession if you have the Equipment
2) Unique rare Units like "Conquistadors" --> An "Upgrade" would not make sense as it would completely break immersion.

In other words:
There is no need for an "Upgrade" of Land Units because we handle almost everything with Professions.
The "unique rare Units" are strong enough so they also do not need an "Upgrade" to anything.

------

For Ships the argumentation would be different:

Nobody says that a Caraval would not still be valid and useful even if you can then acquire and build a Westindiaman.
What the Social Progess will mostly do is give you more Options and choices but it will not invalidate anything.

Also "upgrading" a Caravel to a "Westindiaman" is also complete nonsense technically and historically.
Since these Ships were always build as new Ships any "upgrade" mechanism would also completely break immersion.

In other words:
There is no need for an "upgrade" of Ship because the old ones will still be valid and usable.
Especially in "New Hope" every Ship has gotten its very unique advanatages and disadvantages.

-------

Summary:
This is not Civ4BTS where you have to upgrade a "Figher with a Club" to a "Machinegunner".
Upgrade mechanisms like they were required in Civ4BTS make little sense in this game and are not required.

What we might discuss at most:
Somehow changing the UnitArtStyles over the Eras between 15th and 18th century.
But that is also just a question of immersion and not required for gameplay.

 

[OzzyKP]

I think there is a lot you could do with a tech tree system, but I'm very much not sure about the ideas currently floated.

I very much dislike the idea that techs just happen automatically based on things you are doing already. Building buildings wins you techs to.. build more buildings? Having a navy gets you bonuses to have navy? This all sounds dreadfully boring and will just ratchet up your snowball. I especially don't like the idea that all 12 branches will progress simultaneously.

Fun games give you meaningful choices.

I'd prefer a system where you have to make hard choices about which techs and which branches to pursue. That way you can move your society in a certain direction that is particular to your strategy (or roleplay) instead of just continually acquiring bigger and bigger bonuses. So something like a tech web instead of a tech tree would be better. Or, to stick with a Stellaris example, structure it like the Ethics web where each tech branch has an opposite and opposing branch. You can't get all the techs. You can either go deep in one or two paths, or be a generalist and go shallow in more of them. That really helps with replayability. You can try different strategies & different tech trees each game.

As for what the techs do, I'd very much prefer techs that have some unique impact on the game instead of just unlocking more units/buildings or bonuses. I'd also like some techs to have maluses instead of just bonuses. I also like to lean into the Social Progress label, so more civic type features instead of just more production. Things that change the way you play the game instead of just making you better at the things you are doing anyway. Some ideas:

- Status of Africans - Pursuing these techs make it more likely for your slaves to be freed & upgraded to freedmen. Could unlock an abolitionist unit that can go inside foreign borders and increase chances for foreign slaves to flee, and then you can "capture them". Or just produce a chance that slaves will flee your neighbors and join you. Other techs would make slaves cheaper to purchase, or increase their population growth rate, production rate, etc. Have slaves more or less likely to runaway or revolt.
- Status of Natives - Children of God (increased conversion rate from missions, but increased unhappiness caused by bad relations with native tribes and/or attack penalty for attacking natives), Savage Race (your trading posts also generate native slaves, decreased conversion rate from missions), Generous Treaties (more expensive to purchase land from natives, but relations more positive and more income from trading posts), Stingy treaties (cheaper to purchase land, but less income from trading posts and worse relations), Native Alliances (unlock permanent alliance with natives, trading posts generate native mercenaries), Native Subjects (trading posts generate more gold, but increase raiding chance),
- Status of Women - Women Leadership (cheaper to recruit female founding fathers), Emancipation of Women (more women in the workforce, so a production bonus, but fewer mothers at home so slower population growth, education penalty), Traditional Women (production penalty, population growth bonus, education bonus), Sexual Dominance (extra slots for prostitutes in taverns, untrained colonists working as prostitutes become experts faster, health penalty), Sexual Freedom (happiness bonus, fewer slots for prostitutes, justice/stability penalty)
- Liberty - Martial Law (all troops provide justice, liberty bell penalty, fewer crosses), Freedom of the Press (liberty bell bonus, justice penalty),
- Labor -
- Federalism -
- Warfare - Scorched Earth (more income from pillaging, more buildings destroyed/population killed when conquering a city), Extra Rations (troops cost more food to maintain, combat bonus), Gentile Professionals (chance that Great General or Brave Lieutenant are captured after battle - i.e. their officers see how conciliatory you are and decide to defect to your side)
- Religion - The idea was mentioned of having colonists be tagged as either a loyalist or a patriot, if that is possible, then could you also tag colonists as specific religions? If so that could make for interesting mechanics. Techs could promote the state religion (fewer crosses, but more happiness and more loyalists) or promote religious freedom (more crosses, more rebels, less happiness). Established Church (unlock more advanced church building), Religious Pluralism (increase number of priests that can be placed in existing churches), definitely some tie-ins with the Reformation, 30 years war and the convulsions in the 16th century. Great Awakening (+50% crosses for X turns).

 

[OzzyKP]

Another thought, the "research" resource could be generated by statesmen/administrators along with liberty bells & loyalty. Having one research resource would again force you to make trade offs between choices. They wouldn't be the same as liberty bells though, they'd be unique and there would be a separate line of buildings that would boost it. Just like the printing press boosts liberty bells, a social action league or social advancement association building would boost social progress.

 

[Nightinggale]

Or, to stick with a Stellaris example, structure it like the Ethics web where each tech branch has an opposite and opposing branch.

Whenever I have mentioned a tech tree, what I have considered is a tech, which has tech requirements, including some logic AND and OR conditions, possibly need 3 out of these 5. It can also be blocked by owning certain techs. A setup like that can allow a classic civ style tech tree as well as a web or any combination of those. Displaying the result of this could be an issue, but let's deal with that once we know what to display.

I also like to lean into the Social Progress label, so more civic type features instead of just more production.

Believe it or not, when Firaxis forked civ4 into Colonization, the civ4 style civics ended up being kept in the source code. We have them, but they aren't really used. All they currently do is setting various choices once the player declares independence.
My concept idea is to let techs, civics, traits and more use the very same code, so one tech can do what a trait does for another player and a civic does for a third player. This will provide flexibility without having to do a lot of coding once the first code is done. As such, speculating what is a tech and what is a civic is valid.

The main issue (apart from manpower to create it all) is how to fit tech unlocking into the gameplay. Right now the most tempting solution is to do what Medieval Conquest is doing: have a research profession and let the citizens create research points. This thread has partly been to see if somebody can come up with some idea, which is more engaging, but so far no post has any "wow, that's it" ideas.

 

[OzzyKP]

Believe it or not, when Firaxis forked civ4 into Colonization, the civ4 style civics ended up being kept in the source code. We have them, but they aren't really used. All they currently do is setting various choices once the player declares independence.
My concept idea is to let techs, civics, traits and more use the very same code, so one tech can do what a trait does for another player and a civic does for a third player. This will provide flexibility without having to do a lot of coding once the first code is done. As such, speculating what is a tech and what is a civic is valid.

The main issue (apart from manpower to create it all) is how to fit tech unlocking into the gameplay. Right now the most tempting solution is to do what Medieval Conquest is doing: have a research profession and let the citizens create research points. This thread has partly been to see if somebody can come up with some idea, which is more engaging, but so far no post has any "wow, that's it" ideas.

Excellent. That's great that the code is there.

I think some kind of "research" profession is the best approach, or incorporate it into existing professions/buildings. Though, depending on how far we lean toward "tech" vs "social policy" would determine what form the profession takes. It looks like a standard Civ-like tech tree was created here (is that where the potter art comes from?). As I said above, I wouldn't be terribly interested in a system where tech just unlocks higher buildings, units and improvements. The only real invention that comes to mind (I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of) as something that would have a substantive application for this game is the cotton gin. I came across this interesting tidbit of information about the impact of it on trade during the period:

​

Cotton was a comparative latecomer to the triangular trade, becoming significant only in the 1780s. Cotton exports from the United States were only 189,000 pounds in 1791 but grew by leaps and bounds to an average of about 70 million pounds for the three years prior to the outbreak of the War of 1812.​

I could see a mechanism where production of cotton was sharply limited in the game until the cotton gin was invented.

But that aside, I think it would be much more fun to base it on various social movements of the time. I proposed just tacking on a different yield to statesmen, since our concept of "statesmen" is similar enough to the kind of early political/social activist I have in mind. It would save the trouble of having to create a new building and new profession. The statesmen could work just like a weaver who could make wool or cotton cloth. They could do liberty bells or "social capital" or whatever we want to call the yield. Or, since churches were the biggest source of social change at the time we could have priests create the yield in churches.

Or.... we create different yields for different branches of the social progress tree, and each could be created in different places:

Trade - The yield to invent/create these laws could be generated in markets.
Liberty - Generated in town halls
Equality - Generated in taverns
Justice - Generated in courthouses
Faith - Generated in churches
Welfare - Generated in clinics
Foreign Affairs - Generated in.... schools?

Maybe we make a universal profession that specializes in creating these social progress points, but they could be placed in any of the above buildings to generate the appropriate yield in each building. I like the idea of forcing a trade off between the building's normal uses and investing in social progress. Or if we want to be more boring about it we could just use happiness, education, culture, health, justice, crosses and liberty bells as the yields for each category the way we use different things for the founding fathers.

One idea is we could have the "techs" be laws that change society in one way or another, i.e.:
1512 - Laws of Burgos
1542 - Leyes Nuevas
1550 - Valladolid debate
1601 - Poor Law Act
1651 - Navigation Act
1767 - Suppression of the Society of Jesus

Of course, most of those are laws passed in the Old World, but we could try to find (or invent) New World examples.

We could arrange them in a Founding Father type screen, organized into different categories. Laws could be skipped, but would be nonexclusive. Could they be repealed? Maybe.

Or we just use the standard tech screen layout. My earlier thought was doing a "tree" that goes both directions:

<------ [pro-slavery3] ------- [pro-slavery2] ------- [pro-slavery1] --------- {{ start }} -------- [anti-slavery1] -------- [anti-slavery2] ------- [anti-slavery3] ----->

But if that's too difficult we could just have different paths in the tech tree that don't connect:

{{start}} ------- [pro-slavery1] ------ [pro-slavery2] ----->

{{start}} ------- [anti-slavery1] ------ [anti-slavery2] ----->