Social Progress System (new Tech System for WTP / Civ4Col) [ACCEPTED]

[Nenos]

Yeah, for example we will see in the early game ( so around before 1700 ) more veteran Soldier, Dragoons, Conquistatores, some with good riding skill, light canons. And on the sea more Caraval and tiny trader ships. by the way the sloop is to mighty. And in the cities there are no more factories.

 

[raystuttgart]

One idea came up: unlock by year.

The thing I do not like about it is simply that there is no Player interaction involved.
Thus there is also no feeling of "achievement", no "competition", no ...

Also stuff like e.g. getting "Advances" like e.g. "Tobacco Planting" from Native contact would not work.
Also there would be no chance to e.g. trade Techs and there would also be no Building, no ...

Basically all the cool gameplay involved by Techs which we know from Civ4BTS would be gone ...
It would be a boring "just sit and wait" feature ... and until then lock stuff behind barriers without any chance to get it faster.

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The effort is not to implement the system how to get them.

The effort is simply in having all the Techs designed and balanced.
(So this is the actual prolbme why this was never implemented.)

 

[Schmiddie]

I agree with you ray,

but as far as I remember DoANE has implemented a similar system. However, I never analyzed it in more detail. Nevertheless, I liked the idea that you need to discover the plant at first.

 

[raystuttgart]

I agree with you ray,

My main point is basically that if we implement "Techs" (or however we call it) it should be a feature involving player actions.
Not just sitting and waiting until a turn timer is over ... it would be boring and predictable and the same every single game.

 

[Nightinggale]

My main point is basically that if we implement "Techs" (or however we call it) it should be a feature involving player actions.
Not just sitting and waiting until a turn timer is over ... it would be boring and predictable and the same every single game.

That was my initial thinking too, but since the idea was brought up, I figured it would be best to add it here as input for brainstorming/debate.

If nothing else, it revives this thread.

as far as I remember DoANE has implemented a similar system. However, I never analyzed it in more detail. Nevertheless, I liked the idea that you need to discover the plant at first.

It shouldn't be too difficult to implement that. It would be something like adding a tech tag to bonus info and then add code in the DLL to test for that whenever a plot is explored. Since it's only triggering when new plots are explored, performance shouldn't be an issue.

However I'm not sure I like that approach because how will it affect a game where some bonus just happen to not be present?

The effort is not to implement the system how to get them.

The effort is simply in having all the Techs designed and balanced.
(So this is the actual problem why this was never implemented.)

Yeah we have a problem, which is the opposite of how ideas usually is. We have the code to get it working, but we just don't know (yet) how to integrate it into the gameplay in a way, which makes it feel at home in the game.

 

[Isabelxxx]

Speaking about player interaction, how social progress diffusion would be handled?

i.e. as far as I have read, if you do X your nation becomes better at X and thus social progress is unlocked for X category.
BUT what happens for the other categories? Is there some catch-up mechanism?

One problem I see is indirect snowball effects. If you focus on military category you become better than the rest on military aspects. Ok.
BUT there should be a minimum social progress at other categories even if you do nothing at them, otherwise some playstyles will be indirectly handicapped due to not having access to specific advancements (professions? Units? promotions?).

Also social progress without diffusion, minimum points production per turn and a way to unlock them at specific years (or just adjust the minimum points to account for this) may also impose a double penalization. You are already spending -indirectly- production and resources to focus on a category, but I suppose specific categories will improve production and resources... so it would be counterproductive to focus on non-production categories... since that way you will be reducing your economic system now AND reducing your possibility to improve it on the future.

Since the premise was to give options to players, some thought must be put on this... otherwise it will just become another layer of complexity without real choices. It would be simply better to first focus on production to then expand the other categories, instead of a decision to made according to the context.

Europa Universalis (maybe Stellaris is the same) has a similar Social progress system for 4 or 5 categories which unlock units, buildings, etc. Thing is level cost is reduced every year, and nations of your same culture further reduce the cost. At some point you simply advance on every category no matter what you do. But you can focus on one of them by spending income... (applied to Col, it would be spending production creating units, time exploring, whatever...).

 

[raystuttgart]

@Isabelxxx:
Nice to see you around again.

 

[codiac]

I like this idea. One issue I have with unlocking military units is there is currently no _easy_ way to upgrade a unit to a better unit type ... or if there is I have completely missed it [IMG alt=""]https://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/crazyeyes.gif[/IMG]

Usually I just wait until I can equip the unit type I want, if that is locked then it would be nice to be able to easily (not necessarily cheaply) upgrade units when the new types become available.

 

[raystuttgart]

Land Combat in RaR are handled by 2 concepts mostly:

1) Professions --> There is no "Upgrade" necessary, you just change the Profession if you have the Equipment
2) Unique rare Units like "Conquistadors" --> An "Upgrade" would not make sense as it would completely break immersion.

In other words:
There is no need for an "Upgrade" of Land Units because we handle almost everything with Professions.
The "unique rare Units" are strong enough so they also do not need an "Upgrade" to anything.

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For Ships the argumentation would be different:

Nobody says that a Caraval would not still be valid and useful even if you can then acquire and build a Westindiaman.
What the Social Progess will mostly do is give you more Options and choices but it will not invalidate anything.

Also "upgrading" a Caravel to a "Westindiaman" is also complete nonsense technically and historically.
Since these Ships were always build as new Ships any "upgrade" mechanism would also completely break immersion.

In other words:
There is no need for an "upgrade" of Ship because the old ones will still be valid and usable.
Especially in "New Hope" every Ship has gotten its very unique advanatages and disadvantages.

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Summary:
This is not Civ4BTS where you have to upgrade a "Figher with a Club" to a "Machinegunner".
Upgrade mechanisms like they were required in Civ4BTS make little sense in this game and are not required.

What we might discuss at most:
Somehow changing the UnitArtStyles over the Eras between 15th and 18th century.
But that is also just a question of immersion and not required for gameplay.