Software Piracy

[Efexeye]

This response leads me to believe that you must believe there are noone that qualifies as poor people - or that you are ignorant about what it means to be poor. Did you even read my entire post?

Yes, I read your post. My counter-argument is that if you can afford a computer, a luxury item, then you are not, in fact poor.

 

[Efexeye]

If you think pirating the game is acceptable for any reason, then you are practicing a moral relativism that you find comforting, but stifles innovation and growth

That pretty much says it all.

Control Group, thanks, that is a MUCH clearer explanation of scarcity, and now I see where the disconnect it.

 

[spankey]

I think one of the issues in this discussion is the difference in perspective between Americans (who do generally believe in what the rest of the world calls Rampant Capitalism) and the rest of us (I was born and live in America, but spent 25 years in Europe in between).

The American perspective is that the creator owns it and has the right to sell it to whomever they wish on whatever terms they wish.

The alternative perspective is that there are reasonable standards that apply to everything (the whole 'common-law' concept).

Thus, to an American, Firaxis has the right to demand that I lug my external CD drive around if I want to play cIV on my laptop that does not have an internal drive.

To the others, Firaxis has the right to be paid for the game, but once I have paid for it, I can do pretty much whatever I want with it apart from making copies to distribute.

Similarly, to the Americans, Firaxis has the right to charge the same amount to everyone, even though that might mean that people in countries with lower standards of living cannot afford to buy it.

To the rest of us, this may be legally right, but since copies of cIV are potentially limitless, they would be dumb to do so.

I don't think that this dispute can be resolved, because it does boil down to an almost religious faith on both sides.

I would like to thank the Moderators for allowing this debate to continue and to thank ALL of the contributors for keeping our tempers under control and keeping this discussion rational.

I have enjoyed this discussion as well.
You have the Legalism camp--ie If I can somehow justify my actions on a legal level, then my actions are right and just--hence to the "copyright infringment" crowd, it is not theft.
You have the moral camp--ie taking something for nothing is wrong, regardless of what you call it.
You have the entitlement camp--I know that the game was produced in America for a budget of $10,000,000 US dollars (I don't know the actual amount), but it can be produced basically for "free" if someone cracks the CD, ergo the lack of production costs justify my piracy. Or even better--I am here in Madigascar and our standard of living is lower and our economy operates at a lower wage level viv-a-vis the US. Therefore, I shouldn't pay for it because the price (in US dollars) is too great of a percentage of my income. Nevermind what the cost was to create it (also in US dollars)
The entitlement camp is the only one that really scares me. That is the camp that will drain all innovation from PC gaming

 

[Frewfrux]

Yes, I read your post. My counter-argument is that if you can afford a computer, a luxury item, then you are not, in fact poor.

This is an INCREADABLY subjective view!!!

 

[Efexeye]

This is an INCREADABLY subjective view!!!

Explain how it is incredibly subjective, please.

 

[Control Group]

The American perspective is that the creator owns it and has the right to sell it to whomever they wish on whatever terms they wish.

Not this American's.

Every economic system has its flaws. Capitalism has a larger gap between the haves and have nots. But, it is a large generator of economic development that should lift all classes. Socialism looks wonderful--guaranteed medicine, healthcare, housing, job security. It just comes out ugly due to humans acting in their own self interest.

I'd point out that capitalism isn't exactly an economic system, it's simply a reality. What we call capitalist economies are just the ones that recognize this reality, and attempt to work with it. Others are ones that attempt to mollify, deny, or refuse capitalism (and so far, historically, fail).

This is a different issue altogether. This is more with respect to the question of ownership of the 'media' upon which the intellectual property (hereforth referred to as I.P.) is delivered or ownership of a 'license to use' the media that contains the I.P. This leads into the age old discussion about the 'fair use' and the rights to make backups of your 'media' that contains I.P. that you have purchased a 'right to use'.

It is a different issue, but not altogether. You're right, used books and software piracy are dissimilar. I only raise the point as an illustration that intellectual property can be and is abused, in order to demonstrate that it is not an absolute right.

And I only do this because I always want to see discussion on the topic being about the costs/benefits of how we handle IP, rather than emotional ranting about "thieves" or "The Man."

I think it all really boils down to a clear picture that most of the players in markets revolving around the concepts of I.P. and digital rights need to realize something imporant. If you give someone a copy of the 'media', no matter HOW hard you try to protect it, you've given them the main requirement to reverse engineer said protection. To expect any type of digital rights management or cd media verification or any other copy protection scheme to ever be more than a 'keeping honest people honest' deterrent would be ludicrous.

And that right there is the most insightful thing I think I've read today (notably including my own posts). The biggest single reason to try and recognize that IP is its own beast, and that we should try and recognize its uniqueness in law and culture is that pretending it's just like other property doesn't work.

Excellent point, sir.

 

[spankey]

You can make an infinite copies of CIV or any other game... everyone on the planet can have one. Same thing goes for MP3s and DVDs. The only cost would be the cost of the blank cds and dvds.

Yeah you could do that. One could flood the world with "free" CIV IV copies for a fraction of the cost, maybe even less than the development cost.
But don't hold your breath for a professional to spend his (or her) time creating CIV V. The only way you get a new program in that environment is to wait for the amateurs and volunteers to donate their programming time. It isn't going to come from any business.

 

[Frewfrux]

Explain how it is incredibly subjective, please.

Having an income of less then $100 U.S./month would be increadably poor by North American standards. That same income would make you one of the richer people in the country were I was born, Nigerea. Thus, it is subjective.

Even here in N.A. it is very subjective. My wife and I live below the poverty line. Yet, we can afford (MUST afford) a computer. Someone in a different line of work need not have a computer and so for them it is a luxury.

 

[jimkirk]

Actually, this seems to be more a myth than reality. Software pirates do have their own code of honor and would never try to sneak in viruses. One, too, should be aware of the fact that copy protection mechanisms like SafeDisc (in case of CIV4, SafeDisc4 IIRC) are a very problematic part of the code. One could say that games run IN SPITE OF those mechanisms (and not so rarely, they DON'T run because of those). Ironically, since pirated copies often eliminate the protection algorithm in one way or another, these copies tend to run with less problems than the original software AND do away with the need to have the disc in the drive.

One valid point against pirated copies is that many of them are so-called "rips" where much eye candy is missing (e.g. there could be a "ripped" version of CIV where all movies and voiceovers are ripped - don't know, haven't looked for it). The game then is intact and playable, but it lacks some atmosphere. Nice to get a feel for the game mechanics, but obviously not the real thing.

Another point is that many pirated versions cannot be patched properly - either the patch doesn't install in the first place or the patch overwrites the cracked part of the copy, leaving the user with a fully installed game that cannot be played.

I all comes down to one thing: A game you truly enjoy you want to have as an original, for a couple of reasons. And rightly so, of course. It's just a question of how to determine *IF* you enjoy a game.

let me tell you demon a former workmate of mine once gave me a program (not a game but same difference)with a keygen and shortly later i noticed a virus on my system needless to say i removed it reformated and never installed that program again at least not a illegal version on my ssytem and since then i havent had any virus so maybe pirates have some code of honor amongst themselves but its also true that one would be more likely to get malware and viruses from using hacks and pirated stuff

 

[Siggy19]

I saw the word capitalism and I had to throw my 2 cents in...
Every economic system has its flaws. Capitalism has a larger gap between the haves and have nots. But, it is a large generator of economic development that should lift all classes. Socialism looks wonderful--guaranteed medicine, healthcare, housing, job security. It just comes out ugly due to humans acting in their own self interest.
For example--free healthcare for all. People use it excessively and the lack of profits (price controls) dries up the supply of health professionals. Lack of providers causes rationing of "free" healthcare.

Good point.

However, I disagree about your healthcare example for the following reasons;

America spends DOUBLE what any 'socialised' healthcare system spends.

And does not cover a hefty proportion of its population.

And has a huge number of bankruptcies due to health care costs.

And 'steals' qualified healthcare professionals from every country that does provide socialised healthcare because America's higher level of spending means that they can pay higher wages.

American HMOs DO ration healthcare; appointments to see the family doctor can be a week or more away and the family doctor must be seen before any specialist. It can then take a couple of weeks before the referral is approved and then another month before the appointment with the specialist... and then any surgery needs to be authorized and scheduled after the results of any tests have been reviewed...

I agree that Government Involvment CAN cause problems, but despite the claims of Captialists, they do not have to. In practice, most Government inefficiency is because it is designed to be inefficient (such as Utility Companies being partly intended to keep people employed). Without that, they generally run much more efficiently than the Private Sector simply because of the lack of profit motivation. When Government departments are privatised, it is usually only worthwhile because the private company is allowed to fire the excess workers that were hired by design or because the Government keeps all the risk while giving the benefits to the private company (for example building Nuclear Power Plants).

Just my opinion, and totally off-topic, but hey, we're having fun anyway !

 

[Efexeye]

Okay...but what do you mean by subjective? If your work requires you to have a computer, it's not a luxury, it's a necessity.

What I am saying is that there are people here who are trying to justify piracy by saying that people in poorer countries can't afford to pay 50 bucks for games. My point is that people in these poor countries that have computers are not poor (by their standards), otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford such luxuries as computers. They simply aren't poor if they can afford a computer.

What's next? I can afford 100 bucks for a DVD player, but I can't afford 10 bucks for a DVD, so it's okay to pirate it?

 

[Dairuka]

Arguements like these help us to practice the concept of futility.

Thank you for the over-whelming amount of reading material though.

 

[Efexeye]

let me tell you demon a former workmate of mine once gave me a program (not a game but same difference)with a keygen and shortly later i noticed a virus on my system needless to say i removed it reformated and never installed that program again at least not a illegal version on my ssytem and since then i havent had any virus so maybe pirates have some code of honor amongst themselves but its also true that one would be more likely to get malware and viruses from using hacks and pirated stuff

I couldn't resist- "set keyboard to punctuation on"!

Just kidding, but, seriously, your post made my head hurt a little. Capital letters and commas are your friend.

 

[Efexeye]

Arguements like these help us to practice the concept of futility.

Thank you for the over-whelming amount of reading material though.

They also help me kill time at work while the boss is out of the office...lol

I don't think my posting on a message board is going to change anyone's mind on the subject of piracy, but I do enjoy flexing my intellectual muscles a little bit (since I can't cIV at work) with the debate.

 

[bigphesta]

i'M going to use this logic on my girlfriend....


I can plop $600 for an xbox 360 plus games but taking you to the movies costs too much....


better yet, I can spend $75 on dinner and a movie, but 75 cents on a condom is just too much

 

[spankey]

Good point.

However, I disagree about your healthcare example for the following reasons;

America spends DOUBLE what any 'socialised' healthcare system spends.

And does not cover a hefty proportion of its population.

And has a huge number of bankruptcies due to health care costs.

And 'steals' qualified healthcare professionals from every country that does provide socialised healthcare because America's higher level of spending means that they can pay higher wages.

American HMOs DO ration healthcare; appointments to see the family doctor can be a week or more away and the family doctor must be seen before any specialist. It can then take a couple of weeks before the referral is approved and then another month before the appointment with the specialist... and then any surgery needs to be authorized and scheduled after the results of any tests have been reviewed...

I agree that Government Involvment CAN cause problems, but despite the claims of Captialists, they do not have to. In practice, most Government inefficiency is because it is designed to be inefficient (such as Utility Companies being partly intended to keep people employed). Without that, they generally run much more efficiently than the Private Sector simply because of the lack of profit motivation. When Government departments are privatised, it is usually only worthwhile because the private company is allowed to fire the excess workers that were hired by design or because the Government keeps all the risk while giving the benefits to the private company (for example building Nuclear Power Plants).

Just my opinion, and totally off-topic, but hey, we're having fun anyway !

Most government actions follow the law of unintended consequences. For example, The EU member countries have stringent laws intended to help employees remain employed. It is a big deal to fire someone. If I am an employer in the EU, then I reason that if I can't fire someone and must keep them on my payroll, then I am going to limit hiring until I have exhausted all other possibilities--ie automation, limiting markets, etc. Hence you have double the unemployment that you have in the US.

 

[Siggy19]

i'M going to use this logic on my girlfriend....

better yet, I can spend $75 on dinner and a movie, but 75 cents on a condom is just too much

Trust me, the 75 cents is a BARGAIN !!!!

Besides, pop over to a free clinic and they'll give you a handful free.

 

[Frewfrux]

Okay...but what do you mean by subjective? If your work requires you to have a computer, it's not a luxury, it's a necessity.

Objective: Something that is consistantly true or false regardless of circumstances.

Subjective: Something that can be true or false *depending* on the circumstances.

What I am saying is that there are people here who are trying to justify piracy by saying that people in poorer countries can't afford to pay 50 bucks for games. My point is that people in these poor countries that have computers are not poor (by their standards), otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford such luxuries as computers. They simply aren't poor if they can afford a computer.

This depends on how you are defining the term poor. The very word is subjective. What I am saying is that blanket statements like this are not true strait accross the board. Someone could eaily own a computer (my first cost me $100) and not be able to afford to buy needed items like food (currently I am paying just under $200 per month for food).

I currently live under the poverty line. I am poor according to my government. I consider my self rich. I have everything I could ever really want. (ok, that was REEAAAALLLLYYYY cheesey...sorry about that).

What's next? I can afford 100 bucks for a DVD player, but I can't afford 10 bucks for a DVD, so it's okay to pirate it?

With that particular example I aggree with you. I have a hard time seeing what other purpose there is to buying a DVD player. The computer example, however, I have to disagree.

 

[Control Group]

In practice, most Government inefficiency is because it is designed to be inefficient (such as Utility Companies being partly intended to keep people employed). Without that, they generally run much more efficiently than the Private Sector simply because of the lack of profit motivation.

I would argue that government inefficiency is primarily caused by government having no real incentive to be efficient. Do you happen to have seen an old Saturday Night Live skit with a woman working an old-style phone switchboard? The joke was her telling a complaining customer: "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company." It was funny because, at the time, AT&T had an absolute monopoly on phone service in the US. This led to unnaturally high prices, shoddy customer service, and a complete lack of accountability.

This is the same situation every government is in by its very nature: it has an absolute monopoly on the functions of government. The result is predictable.

Competition drives efficiency, and the competition is for profits. Far from being a cause of inefficiency, profit is what demands efficiency. After all, efficiency can be measured by operating cost, and lower operating costs translate to higher profits.

OTOH, the profit motive does make organizations short-sighted. Money now is always worth more than money later, so decisions are generally made that benefit the short term, often at the expense of the long term. This is one of the two fundamental and unavoidable detriments to embracing capitalism (the other is overproduction).

 

[Machete Phil]

This whole scarce/non-scarce resource concept is relatively flimsy.

You're not talking about a straight-up commodity. The price you pay for a video game is not in exchange for the disc, box, manual, and artwork. The majority of the cost is a contract between the consumer and developer.

You are offering money to offset the cost of producing the content of the game in exchange for the right to install and play it on a single machine.

That's the exchange. If you feel the price is unfair, you're fully within your rights to decline exchanging the money for these services.

However, your argument that the root of piracy is somehow connected to the lack of "economic value" of the commodity in question is ludicrous.

The beams of light coming from a theatre screen have no economic value either, but you're not entitled to let them enter your eyeballs without paying the proper admittance. You're not paying for the light reflecting off the screen, you're paying for the right to sit in front of it.

Likewise the soundwaves coming from a stage at a concert cannot be packaged or resold, but you're certainly guilty of a kind of piracy against the band if you sneak into their show and listen for free. Is that okay, because the sound you're hearing is "non-scarce commodity?"



You're trying (unsuccessfully) to seperate the costs of producing the video game with the reality of the final product. One does not exist apart from the other. Just like the price of an automobile is not just the price of the metal it's made of and the price of a meal is not exactly the value of the food, the cost of a video game includes your share of the production costs.


If you choose to pirate software, you're making a simple statement, "I refuse to pay for the rights to use the product your labor has produced." Period.