NP300
Prince
Gen said:
If what you say is true then the combat calculator on this site is in error because it gives ships the fortification bonus.
Some comments on submarines
- Thread starter starrider
- Start date
If what you say is true then the combat calculator on this site is in error because it gives ships the fortification bonus.
toh6wy
Emperor
Chauliodus said:
Battleships could definitely have a chance against AEGIS Cruisers. Their big guns can fire pretty darn far... if the AEGIS Cruiser wasn't prepared, or was incompetent, or overwhelmed, or already damaged, then it could definitely be taken out. But there isn't even a way that an ironclad could hit a submarine (at least in a way that could defeat one more often than once in a blue moon). I don't think it's necessary at all for gameplay purposes to allow ironclads to destroy submarines at least 40 or so percent of the time. No, it should hardly ever happen, and I sincerely doubt it would unbalance anything.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
If they brought back firepower, nuclear subs should be given a huge firepower stat(4 or 5 maybe).
NP300
Prince
toh6wy said:
An Ironclad could quite possibly beat a diesel submarine if it caught said submarine while surfaced and recharging its batteries.
Love submarine topics. I am in the navy and am a crew member of a fast attack summarine. I think these ideas are pretty good.
My thoughts on some things. I think the biggest difference between diesel and nuke subs should be that nuke subs have a much improved movement value. A nukes biggest advantage over a diesel is the ability to move fast while submerged. They are not quieter, and really not anymore effective than a diesel on the attack. But they can haul ass underwanter, while a submerged diesel is very slow.
Also, I really like your idea of differentiating between fast attacks and boomers. But I think that a fast attack should be able to carry one cruise missile. For example, many US and British fast attacks have tomahawk capabilities, as for other nations I am not sure.
I like the idea of boomers getting a combination of cuise missiles and tactical nukes up to a total of four also. But I don't think they should be slow. They just shouldn't have a good conventional attack value becasue they are not used in this fassion.
My thoughts on some things. I think the biggest difference between diesel and nuke subs should be that nuke subs have a much improved movement value. A nukes biggest advantage over a diesel is the ability to move fast while submerged. They are not quieter, and really not anymore effective than a diesel on the attack. But they can haul ass underwanter, while a submerged diesel is very slow.
Also, I really like your idea of differentiating between fast attacks and boomers. But I think that a fast attack should be able to carry one cruise missile. For example, many US and British fast attacks have tomahawk capabilities, as for other nations I am not sure.
I like the idea of boomers getting a combination of cuise missiles and tactical nukes up to a total of four also. But I don't think they should be slow. They just shouldn't have a good conventional attack value becasue they are not used in this fassion.
EdwardTking
Deity
Sub bug is fun; particularly when it results in AIs unintentionally
going to war with each other as in my current game.
going to war with each other as in my current game.
. Some very good suggestions 
You are a
I salute you 
.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
Submariner, very cool derekroth. I was applying to the Naval Academy, but soon developed a medical condition that doesn't permit me to serve. I've heard that even boomers are quite claustraphobic and crowded.
Ben E Gas
King
That would really suck if they removed the fortify command for ships. I'd hate to have to keep hitting the space bar. Maybe they could rename it "Anchor". or "Red Alert".
genghis_khev
Surviving Monarch Level
Ben E Gas said:
I like the "Anchor" idea!! Ironically though as was mentioned earlier to be suddenly attacked when at anchor would lower your defensive value substantially!
zilfondel
Chieftain
How about...
if you move a ship into a square with somebody's submarine, you automatically attack it unless you have sonar. If you don't have sonar, it won't reveal which nationality you attacked (and probably lost if you have an older kind of ship, like a trireme), and war will not be declared, and the computer won't get mad at you.
Of course, what should happen if you move into a square with an ally and you don't have sonar? Allow stacking?
Obviously if you have sonar, it wouldn't let you move into the square. Although blockading ports with subs sounds pretty dumb.
=====================
Remember, subs are the ultimate stealth weapon. They aren't used to intervene and be visible, but to stay submerged and tail an enemy...then attack when they need to.
Actually, this leads to what I want as the most critical part of subs:
to be able to attack using both nukes and cruise missiles. Cruise missiles should have a fairly short range, until you get advanced flight, which could extend its range from like 3 squares to 5 squares. Subs should be able to carry 1 missile - either a nuke or a cruise missile.
Also - attacking an enemy ship/land unit/city with a cruise missile when you are outside of the enemy's visual range should count as a sneak attack, like using a privateer. Enemey infantry defensive units in cities should get 3x defensive bonuses vs. cruise missiles to prevent cheap invasions.
Oh yea, cruise missiles should be really cheap - 60 shields - and should only have like 2 hitpoints, so as not to make them TOO good.
That's my $.02
if you move a ship into a square with somebody's submarine, you automatically attack it unless you have sonar. If you don't have sonar, it won't reveal which nationality you attacked (and probably lost if you have an older kind of ship, like a trireme), and war will not be declared, and the computer won't get mad at you.
Of course, what should happen if you move into a square with an ally and you don't have sonar? Allow stacking?
Obviously if you have sonar, it wouldn't let you move into the square. Although blockading ports with subs sounds pretty dumb.
=====================
Remember, subs are the ultimate stealth weapon. They aren't used to intervene and be visible, but to stay submerged and tail an enemy...then attack when they need to.
Actually, this leads to what I want as the most critical part of subs:
to be able to attack using both nukes and cruise missiles. Cruise missiles should have a fairly short range, until you get advanced flight, which could extend its range from like 3 squares to 5 squares. Subs should be able to carry 1 missile - either a nuke or a cruise missile.
Also - attacking an enemy ship/land unit/city with a cruise missile when you are outside of the enemy's visual range should count as a sneak attack, like using a privateer. Enemey infantry defensive units in cities should get 3x defensive bonuses vs. cruise missiles to prevent cheap invasions.
Oh yea, cruise missiles should be really cheap - 60 shields - and should only have like 2 hitpoints, so as not to make them TOO good.
That's my $.02
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
I think that all water squares should have two 'understood' levels. This means submarines would occupy one and surface ships the other. The underwater level would allow multiple nationalities ships, but detection of non-friendlies is much more likely. This allows submarines to trails ships. Submarines should carry many missle(4 each). Cruise missles and torpedos should be an assumed part of the ship. It would be like a 'bombard attack' that appeared once Rocketry was avaliable. Nukes would still have ot be built seperately and ships could carry four(subs were very im portant part of strategic triad). Also, there shoudl be a method to establish a SOSUS net.
schwick, they did not even fix the submarine bug.
I think many suggestions make sense for Civ4 however. I would like a "home-made" fix for the Sub bug:
Will the AI produce subs like mad if you set them hidden nationality?
Besides that, many submarines die attacking lone Battleships. The balance of naval units is overall not the most enjoyable.... sigh.
I think many suggestions make sense for Civ4 however. I would like a "home-made" fix for the Sub bug:
Will the AI produce subs like mad if you set them hidden nationality?
Besides that, many submarines die attacking lone Battleships. The balance of naval units is overall not the most enjoyable.... sigh.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
but those dept charges are thrown of the back of the ship. Then the sub has to move in line with that ship (chasing it) so it gets into the charges.
Defensive bombardment with dept charges is not really possible.
Attacking a sub in the time between firing the torpedo and the torpedo hittting target i think is also pretty unrealistic unless there are multiple vessels around to attack the sub.
Subs have a much more important role in history than civ gives it.
For a long period of time, the german subs were virtually uncontested, destroying many dozens of ships each month while very rarely losing any subs at all.
Maybe a different type of attack would be needed to correctly represent the sub's role. galleys and iron clads should simply not even have an attack or defence against subs. Destroyers should be the ships that can fight subs efficiently. (i don't know what weapons other more modern ships (battle ships) have, but i would expect they have at least some weapons able to attack subs.)
btw, one modern nuclear missile sub carries not 4 missiles, but dozens of them. They can nuke entire continents (all large cities on it) with merely 1 sub. That would be a bit unballancing in the game though (As it is in RL)
Defensive bombardment with dept charges is not really possible.
Attacking a sub in the time between firing the torpedo and the torpedo hittting target i think is also pretty unrealistic unless there are multiple vessels around to attack the sub.
Subs have a much more important role in history than civ gives it.
For a long period of time, the german subs were virtually uncontested, destroying many dozens of ships each month while very rarely losing any subs at all.
Maybe a different type of attack would be needed to correctly represent the sub's role. galleys and iron clads should simply not even have an attack or defence against subs. Destroyers should be the ships that can fight subs efficiently. (i don't know what weapons other more modern ships (battle ships) have, but i would expect they have at least some weapons able to attack subs.)
btw, one modern nuclear missile sub carries not 4 missiles, but dozens of them. They can nuke entire continents (all large cities on it) with merely 1 sub. That would be a bit unballancing in the game though (As it is in RL)
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
That last point is why I restricted it to four. playbalance. I still stand that the Cruise missle shoudl be the default bombardment attack of nuke subs once rocketry is researched.
Subs were great for knocking out shipping, however sea lanes are not simulated. Even in modern warfare, they are good at being where the enemy is not, and reconnaissance. They can hit and run, but ASW makes casual use of these tactics dangerous.
From what I understand, the current civ team sought to eliminate era-ahead domiancne, primarily by removing FP.
Subs were great for knocking out shipping, however sea lanes are not simulated. Even in modern warfare, they are good at being where the enemy is not, and reconnaissance. They can hit and run, but ASW makes casual use of these tactics dangerous.
From what I understand, the current civ team sought to eliminate era-ahead domiancne, primarily by removing FP.
zilfondel
Chieftain
Okay, I'm testing this out...
I started a new C3C game, modified nuke subs to be hidden nationality, and cruise missiles to be carried like tactical nukes.
Now, if I ever actually get to the modern era, we might find out how they'll use them. More likely that the Maya, who are a full age ahead of me, will get there first.
Oh well, at least I've got a really large navy for them to test on! 27 gallies...
I started a new C3C game, modified nuke subs to be hidden nationality, and cruise missiles to be carried like tactical nukes.
Now, if I ever actually get to the modern era, we might find out how they'll use them. More likely that the Maya, who are a full age ahead of me, will get there first.
Oh well, at least I've got a really large navy for them to test on! 27 gallies...
PolarisSLBM
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2004
- Messages
- 43
If I may suggest that if you want to test these things, you should set the DEBUG flag in the editor. In scenario properties, next to Playable Civilizations, there is a box that says Debug Mode.
If you start a new game in Debug mode, you can use SHIFT+F1 to create any unit, for any player, at any experience level.
Hope that helps.
Also, about fortifying : surface ships used to set up torpedo nets around themselves to stop torpedos...
If you start a new game in Debug mode, you can use SHIFT+F1 to create any unit, for any player, at any experience level.
Hope that helps.
Also, about fortifying : surface ships used to set up torpedo nets around themselves to stop torpedos...
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