Some comments on submarines

[Ben E Gas]

I agree with 2 & 3.

I also agree that you should be able to pass right over a sub if you cant detect it. Thus saving an unwanted war. Is this the bug people are talking about?
If not, what is the sub bug?

 

[NP300]

Never heard of depth charges? In RL, more subs have been destroyed underwater by ships than by aircraft.

Depth charges are not long-range bombardment. They can be represented by the ships' regular attack and defense stats.

Also maybe our sources differ but my understanding was that depth charges were very ineffective and were useful mostly for psychological purposes. Again, my understanding is that during WWII the u-boats were sunk primarily by aircraft when the bombers caught them on the surface recharging their batteries.

 

[Stid]

in the suggestions for civ4 given somewhere in this forum the idea of hidden nationality has been put forward along with 2 different depths for submarines or something so that at the lower, they cannot attack/be attacked.as i say theres more details there cos i havent got the greatest memory

 

[10Seven]

Submarines immune to bombardment - excepting aircraft bombard. Should be easy to impliment...

 

[sir_schwick]

Nuke subs should be able to stay undetected while they are fortified, even against units with sonar. This opens up the possiblity of a SOSUS net(Small Wonder?). Frequently in RL they are used for reconnaisance and can stay deep for long periods of times. Diesel subs have to surface often for air for the diesel engines. They would be detectable by units with sonar, even when fortified.

Subs should be able to retreat. Nationality should be hidden, but you can claim submarine aggression as a reason to declare war(even if its not true). Of course if you are foudn to be wrong, or even attacking yourself to start a war, everyone gets pissed.

 

[NP300]

Nuke subs should be able to stay undetected while they are fortified, even against units with sonar. This opens up the possiblity of a SOSUS net(Small Wonder?). Frequently in RL they are used for reconnaisance and can stay deep for long periods of times. Diesel subs have to surface often for air for the diesel engines. They would be detectable by units with sonar, even when fortified.

Subs should be able to retreat. Nationality should be hidden, but you can claim submarine aggression as a reason to declare war(even if its not true). Of course if you are foudn to be wrong, or even attacking yourself to start a war, everyone gets pissed.

I don't even think ships should be able to fortify. It makes no sense to me. What, are they digging trenches in the water or something?

They shouldn't have hidden nationality. Modern sonar can identify what country a sub belongs to by its sound signature. And no country would use a submarine in a raid except during a war. So you would always know who attacked you.

Also regarding the previous point about depth charges; during WWII 56% of the u-boats were sunk by aircraft, mostly when they surfaced to recharge batteries.

 

[Longasc]

Very good and interesting ideas!

I think they should fix the sub bug before, they will probably not even do this!

But perhaps they will implement some of the ideas in Civ4, I would be content and really happy if they would fix at least the well known sub bug!

 

[sir_schwick]

Fortifying represents that they are going into REconnaisance mode and just sitting their and getting intel. Nuclear Subs often spend months on the other side of the Atlantic and pacific ocean collecting info on enemy sub and ship movements.

Maybe nationality should be hidden until the more advanced acoustical sensors are developed.

 

[toh6wy]

Here's one horrifying little tidbit for ya: If a submarine (nuclear or regular) attacks a fortified Ironclad, and both vessels have the same amount of health, then the Ironclad has a better chance of winning. C'mon! There is no way *in hell* that an Ironclad, a strictly surface vessel with strictly surface weaponry and no radar or anything like that, could even detect a submarine approach and launch a torpedo at it. Plus, even if it knew the sub was coming, what could it possibly do to defend? Try to fire a few cannonballs at it, which probably can't be aimed down enough to hit a sub? Heck, ironclads are so unstable that a sub could probably capsize one just by surfacing underneath it. And yet in Civ3, a sub usually loses on the attack against one that's fortified - and even if it isn't fortified, it still has a good chance of sinking the sub anyway. In *any* sub-ironclad combat the ironclad has a pretty good chance of winning (as long as the sub doesn't have a ton more health) - yet it *should* have virtually no chance at all of even damaging a sub.

...sorry about that. Got a bit out of hand there. But I had to say something, having been a victim of this incredible stupidity several times.

 

[Chauliodus]

Heck, ironclads are so unstable that a sub could probably capsize one just by surfacing underneath it.

Ummm most ironclads arn't like the low draft monitors the Union had during the civil war.

ere's one horrifying little tidbit for ya: If a submarine (nuclear or regular) attacks a fortified Ironclad, and both vessels have the same amount of health, then the Ironclad has a better chance of winning. C'mon! There is no way *in hell* that an Ironclad, a strictly surface vessel with strictly surface weaponry and no radar or anything like that, could even detect a submarine approach and launch a torpedo at it.

Its called gameplay over realism, by your train of thought Aegis cruiser should be able to be invincible against battleships because they launch AS missiles against enemies dozens of miles away.

 

[Stid]

fortifying is a load of crap with ships.when are they never in a defensive mode over an attacking mode? does their radar only work when the ships not moving or do the crew suddenly pay more attention to the sonar? no - they're on guard all the time you cant have a fortifyed ship unless i suppose you put mines around it but thats in real life not the civ world.

 

[genghis_khev]

Sonar works a lot better when you are not running your engines. I believe its a sound type thing or something!

Seriously I just think it relates to a ship being more geared for combat than movement / normal living (i.e. doubled watches, all hands already at combat stations, etc.). Now IRL ships probably can still (and do) move while under these conditions (thus negating their need in the game) but for the sake of gameplay they included it (and doesn't it save having to hit space once for each ship per turn!!).

 

[Stid]

but obviously if your own engines arent running, your gona have to wait for the submarine to come near YOU which is a silly tactic

and i still think its a load of crap im gona be stubborn

 

[genghis_khev]

and i still think its a load of crap im gona be stubborn

You could alway mod it out as I think there is a fortify tag but I could be wrong.

You never know though, may be they deploy massive inflateable floats down the side of the ships to deflect missile and torpedoes? If so they should have shown this in the fortify animation!

 

[Stid]

now that would look cool

 

[Gen]

Actually fortifying ships doesn't do anything good, it's merely command which lets you position a ship somewhere and don't bother with pressing spacebar every turn when you want it to stay there. Ships don't get any defensive bonus from fortifying which is sensible. The only thing they get is increased line of sight after skipping full movement in one turn, just like in sentry mode.

 

[NP300]

You could alway mod it out as I think there is a fortify tag but I could be wrong.

Hmmm... I was thinking of doing this. But will unchecking this flag only remove the UI button for fortifying? Because if it only removes the button then the AI will still be able to fortify its ships.

 

[NP300]

Actually fortifying ships doesn't do anything good, it's merely command which lets you position a ship somewhere and don't bother with pressing spacebar every turn when you want it to stay there. Ships don't get any defensive bonus from fortifying which is sensible. The only thing they get is increased line of sight after skipping full movement in one turn, just like in sentry mode.

Can you provide some documention showing that they don't get the fortification bonus?

What does the increased line of sight mean? That they can see one more square away?

 

[NP300]

Here's one horrifying little tidbit for ya: If a submarine (nuclear or regular) attacks a fortified Ironclad, and both vessels have the same amount of health, then the Ironclad has a better chance of winning.

I think the naval stats are messed up. A destroyer has a 45% chance of beating a battleship. A battleship attacking another battleship has a 66% chance of winning. This doesn't make sense. Battleship vs. Battleship should be about 50/50.

I'm starting an experiment. I reduced most attack stats to equal the defense stats. So destroyers get 8 attack and 8 defense. Battleships get 12 attack and 12 defense. Now, the attackers should still get a slight advantage due to intitative. So I went into the terrain properties and I changed the coast/sea/ocean defense bonus from +10% to -10%. Don't know if it will take negatives but I hope so. This will create a slight disadvantage for the defender. I think now the stats make sense. Destroyers have a poor chance of defeating a battleship and an attacking battleship only has a slight chance if beating a defending battleship. Also, this helps subs with an attack of 8 because now defenders have their effective defense reduced by 20%(change from +10% to -10%).

 

[Gen]

Can you provide some documention showing that they don't get the fortification bonus?

Sorry but no... I tried to find that info but no luck. I do remember though it was information posted by one of developers. It might be posted on another site, I don't remember exactly as it was long time ago, even before PTW was released.

Edit: It can be verified by statistical combat tests though.

What does the increased line of sight mean? That they can see one more square away?

Yes, one tile more can be seen until ship is activated again.