Some Help w/ Civics/Leaders

[Elek]

I like to play very much like an Agricultural civ. in Civ3...I expand very quickly and build lots of farms. I also like playing on huge maps. Naturally, Expansive lends itself to this, but organized and philosophical both help. I've been using Peter and Mehmed mostly and both seem to work pretty well.

Mehmed's organization makes it so my generally large empire doesn't get a lot of upkeep, and I don't have to take State Property to reduce it so much. Also the Unique aqueduct helps keep my cities in top growing shape. On the other hand getting extra great people is nice as Peter, especially when combined with Pacifism.

Which Civics would be best to use overall? I shoot for Pacifism really quick, but other than that I'm not too sure what to use.

Representation then go Suffrage after a while?

Bureacracy vs. Free Speech?

I'm totally lost on labor...they all seem to have advantages. If I'm Peter State Property works well, but it sorta clashes with Suffrage because you can't focus on particular buildings. I'm totally lost what labor to use with Mehmed...

Thoughts? I'm leaning heavily towards sticking with Mehmed, but need a lot of help with civics choices...

Thanks!

 

[Elandal]

There aren't any civics that would really be "best" in all situations, but most of the time there are some rough guidelines.

Govt:
Starting with Despotism, the first choice you get is usually Hereditary Rule at Monarchy. No real reason not to run HR then - it's as cheap as Despotism, and provides added benefit of happiness from city garrisons.
Representation comes with Constitution, and Democracy (thus Universal Suffrage) often isn't that far then. The tradeoff between those two is mostly about the hammers you get from towns when running US, versus the extra beakers specialists bring with Representation. If you're running mainly farms and specialists, the only benefit of US is from cashrushing builds, so the only reason to go for US is that your coffers are overflowing with coin and you decide to burn some of it for rushing.
Police state (with Fascism tech) is excellent for warfare. Faster unit builds, and lower War Weariness. In modern warfare WW is often crippling, and Police State is used to combat it.

Getting Pyramids early on often leads to running Representation for large part of the game. Early representation is a strong move, but pyramids a very hammer-heavy wonder, so it's a big gamble to try to build them - unless there's stone around, and even then preferring industrious leader.

Legal:
Feudalism brings Vassallage. That's an expensive civic to run, but Mehmed is organized so not that big a problem. Main benefits are higher experience for units built and free units (no upkeep for some number of units). This is my main "warbuild / wartime" civic - get units out of the barracks directly with 5XP (two promotions), and the army costs a bit less to maintain.
Bureaucracy with Civil Service is a strong civic when your capitol is producing most of the commerce and/or hammers in your empire. This means that the capitol is often cottaged so that the Bureaucractic commerce bonus applies and the capitol can basically provide upkeep for the whole empire.
Nationhood is a later wartime civic (Nationalism tech). The main purpose is to allow drafting of units - first they may be musketmen, then riflemen. Drafting infantry is generally not that good, as it takes two populations for one unit. Also, barracks provide now happiness - this may be important to combat War Weariness.
Free Speech (from Liberalism) is mainly used when running lots of cottages. It provides +2c from towns, so switching to Free Speech should be done when your cottages have matured suitably. However, if you're running mostly farms and specialists, with cottages only in your capitol, Bureaucracy is probably better. The additional benefit of Free Speech is +100% culture for all cities. This is essential when going for cultural victory, but is also nice when waging cultural war on the borders and for newly acquired cities.

Labor:
Slavery, the favourite civic of many players Crack the whip, turn population into hammers. I often end up going for Slavery early (research Mining -> Bronze Working first) and get out of it only for Emancipation.
Serfdom - the forgotten civic.. Available with Feudalism, powers up your workers for 1.5x efficiency. But is it worth losing the whip for this? Sometimes.
Caste System, available with Code of Laws, allows you to run loads of specialists. No need for the library or market - just assign scientists (most often - merchants would be my second choice, artists in border cities as needed) as you have the food to. Combined with Representation, this is very powerful.
Finally, Emancipation. The Democractic labor civic that almost always has to be adopted due to other civs adopting it (Emancipation Envy causes unhappiness in cities if you aren't running Emancipation when other civs are). Cottages mature faster under emancipation, which allows cottage economies to get the towns that are again powered by US - the other Democratic civic. For those running specialist economies, Caste System is almost certainly better.

.. There's Economy and Religion left, but I think I'll have to stop now.

 

[ratrangerm]

If you are doing a Great Person strategy, Representation is generally a good civic to run, thanks to all the science your specialists will generate. With a lot of specialists, particularly from a GP Farm, science will really accumulate.

You can then switch to Universal Suffrage if you are aiming for a space race victory to get more hammers.

Bureaucracy is usually better compared to Free Speech, unless you are planning on a cultural victory, in which case you need to go with Free Speech.

 

[Antilogic]

Mehmed's organization makes it so my generally large empire doesn't get a lot of upkeep, and I don't have to take State Property to reduce it so much. Also the Unique aqueduct helps keep my cities in top growing shape. On the other hand getting extra great people is nice as Peter, especially when combined with Pacifism.

I tend to pick my civics based on the current situation in the game, whether or not I'll go for Serfdom or stay in Slavery, for example. However, I don't think you have a solid understanding of the upkeep costs in the game.

If you look in the Civilopedia at any "Organized" leader, it will say they get "-50% Civic Upkeep". This does not affect the "distance from palace" upkeep or "number of cities" upkeep that your cities experience on the map. If you look at the bottom of your civics screen, it will show you the cost of running your empire's current civics. That is what the Organized trait halves.

Essentially, the Organized trait allows you to run the high upkeep civics without paying as much money. The benefit is entirely lost on no upkeep civics--if you run Nationhood or Pacifism, then you get no additional benefit from the Organized trait. However, civics like Organized Religion, Police State, Vassalage, and Bureaucracy are more attractive because you don't have to pay out the highest upkeep costs in the game.

Using State Property affects the "distance from palace" upkeep cost--it has the same benefit irrelevant of whether or not you are an "Organized" leader.



I always recommend selecting your civics based on your current situation. If you have a lot of matured cottages, Free Speech and Universal Suffrage are good choices. If you are fighting a lot, Vassalage and Theocracy can be helpful. Pick and change...also, I'm not sure why you seem to think State Property and Universal Suffrage are mutually exclusive--you can run them simultaneously, and I have on a number of occasions.


EDIT: Typo!