Some ideas for new units

[Antilogic]

Civ might not attempt to be 100% historically accurate but it's certainly not ahistorical game (like age of mythology or red alert). A game described to take you from the stone age to the space age cannot be described as anything but historical.

I think this is "doing it right".

What I think is funny is that I could have written TheLazyHase's last post, and frankly agree with half of his argument right up to selecting icons. It seems as if he doesn't give Civ players much credit, or thinks they will throw tantrums when they don't get what their prejudices "confirm" is the "right" unique ability.

Don't know where he got that idea.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Back on topic...

I'd like to see a Slinger... basically a pre-archery warrior that has 1-2 first strikes and is +50% vs Archers.

 

[w2w2w]

it saddens me that there is no spy UU. I wish there was a nation with a spy that needed -50%

 

[ICNP]

Well, as someone would say, I know what I want, but not how to do it

More seriously, finding UU and UB is difficult in my opinion, because they are a lot of thing to consider. A lot of country have more than one epoch where they were distinctive (like Germany, England, rance, America), some had strength difficult to cater into unit or batiment (the Stock exchange is a prime example : I see what they want to emphatize, but apart from London I don't think they are any kind of real financial place in British kingdom), and in some case it's easy to go into overkill.

The example of France is for me typical : one of the more flavorful period of France history is revolution. But it's very hard to translate into Civ term : they had a frightful army (even before Napoleon), but that was because France were a big country and strated to conscript, not because the units themselves had something outstanding ; the administration changed completely, but a corthouse UB would appear much too soon ; and the leader are really obscure for non-french (and even a lot of french ; St Just and Robespierre are not widely known, in addition to be in some aspect about as evil as possible). The best thing I could see would be a prefecture UB with either added culture (because the France nationalism began to form at this moment), or added conscript capability, but what building would it replace ? Courthouse are much too soon, jail would feel about as akward as India UB.

The choice in BTS is in general rather decent, and in some case very good. Some are weak, the french musketeer is a prime example , but thing like bowman (and the whole babylonian / sumerian distinction that is pretty hard to do), camel archer (the history freak side of me would have taken the Mamelouk, but they are not exactly well-known, and on top of that not proeminent for a lot of time. They would fit with Saladin, however), but all in all they are in my opinion at least decent.

I like the French UU, the Salon is always in History books and when people think france, they think well . I'm not all for the Musketeer, if there was a cool name they had for their cannons I'd be all for it. And Germans should really get a Rifle UU, since the Prussian infantry was amazing.

America's Navy Seal is one I'd like to see changed but to what I have no idea. It's just silly to have every American Marine a highly trained special forces unit (although this rule has been broached in many cases). Of course otherwise the only thing America has unique and identifiable would be an oil based unit (how apt) that would come too late. I'd vote for the Minutemen (cheap musket) but that's kinda a fluke.

 

[HappyFunPal]

I vote for tercio and early cannon

 

[HappyFunPal]

Perhaps make Enola Gay the American UU LOL

seriously, The Americans should have a rifleman unit replacing the musketman/rifleman. American guerilla riflemen did more damage to the Redcoats than people know. Americans gained experience fighting the French and Indian war then used it against the British in the War.

The English should have a navy UU. The Brutish Navy has ruled the Sea since Lizzy 1. Or maybe some kind of unit that makes other units into vassals. If the East Indians had been united instead of waring amongst themselves, the English would not have conquered them. The highlander unit? Ladies from Hell scared Hitler.

Maybe the American UU should be a cavalry replacement? Post Civil War until WWI, old west icon.

 

[TheLazyHase]

The English should have a navy UU. The Brutish Navy has ruled the Sea since Lizzy 1. Or maybe some kind of unit that makes other units into vassals. If the East Indians had been united instead of waring amongst themselves, the English would not have conquered them.

Ironically, the viking UB could work very well as English UB since it give a permanent sea advantage, and they only lost the edge in modern area, AFAIK

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Just to tell you guys, the American UU in Civ3 was the F-15 (a fighter that had lethal bombing capabilities) and the English UU in Civ3 was the Man O'War (a frigate with double the regular attack and the ability to enslave other ships). Both UUs received quite a bit of criticism; the former because it came too late and the latter because it was mostly useless on Pangaea maps but was the exact opposite on an Archipelago map (just like all ships, really). Civ4 didn't have any naval UUs until BtS for that very reason.

BTW I'd like to see the Huskarl in Civ somehow (it might've been in that one scenario in Civ3 Conquests, though I never owned Civ3). Maybe it could appear in the regular game as an anti-archer infantry? Sorry, another reference to AoEII. BTW here are the AoEII UUs that are already in Civ4.

The Briton Longbowman (regular unit in Civ4)
The Celtic Woad Raider (well, the Celt UU in Civ4 is a swordsman, so I felt like it)
The Viking Berserker (in AoEII the Berserk constantly regenerated health)
The Japanese Samurai (in AoEII it got a bonus against buildings and UUs)
The Chinese Chu-ko-nu (no explanation)
The Saracen Mameluke (hey, both the Mameluke and Camel Archer are camel riders with ranged attack)
The Byzantine Cataphract (oddly enough, AoEII's version was WEAKER than the regular knight if I remember correctly, but had a bonus against some units)
The Persian War Elephant (blah blah blah)
The Turkish Janissary (d'oh)
The Aztec Jaguar Warrior (in AoEII it has bonuses against other infantry, ironically)
The Korean War Wagon (well, not really, but it's also a siege machine!)
The Spanish Conquistador (oddly enough AoEII's version is equipped with a gun)

 

[Camikaze]

I'd like to see a Slinger... basically a pre-archery warrior that has 1-2 first strikes and is +50% vs Archers.

Where exactly in the tech tree would this come? There isn't much time between Warrior and Archer in the game, so having another pre-Archer unit may be a bit difficult to squeeze in.

 

[TheLazyHase]

The Saracen Mameluke (hey, both the Mameluke and Camel Archer are camel riders with ranged attack)

In AoEII, maybe. But as far as I know, Arabian people were not stupid, and mameluk used horse and not some freakin' camel that can't be used reliably for war and is much less practical.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Oh, you are all too right. Even worse is that the Mamelukes attack at range.

BTW the Mayan UU in AoEII is the plumed archer, but the holkan is in AoEIII. I just had to mention some things. Ah, but another suggestion of mine was barbarian UUs. That way huskarls could probably be introduced.

EDIT: About slingers, they aren't very popular in most historical strategy games. The only ones I know of that feature slingers are Age of Empires (Rise of Rome only), and Empire Earth. In the former, they are meant to mute the previously dominant strategy of bowman rushing, and in EE they are just ranged support for clubmen (as far as I remember).

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: moved to Civ Ideas

 

[Gangor]

For me changes that should be made include:

English: Longbow - This is an iconic weapon almost exclusively used by the British. Bizzare that it's available for anyone else, really. Was devastatingly effective at the time - should be to crossbows what praets are to swordsmen, much more powerful but more expensive.

French: "Les Petite Filles" - If the British were known for their infantry during the Napoleonic period, the French were known for their guns (ie cannon). Makes much more sense than Musketeers if you ask me. Combat bonus when not attacking a city? More collateral damage?

Viking (Danish): Longship - Their infantry wasn't fantastically better than contempory forces, but their ships were. Scandinavians crossed the Atlantic long before Columbus.
Galley with ability to cross ocean tiles (perhaps with a chance of being lost each turn, like Civ 1), increased movement.

Native Americans (Iroquois or Cherokee): Brave - An archery unit with a combat bonus in forest and jungle. Perhaps it could also be invisible if in forest or jungle tiles like a sub?

Germany: U-boat - More iconic imo than their tanks, and in fact superior to other submarines of the time. Panzers otoh were usually inferior to their competition and suceeded primarily due to the tactics they employed. Also U-boats were used in two world wars. Increased strength and maybe movement.

America: P51 Mustang - Goering once said "When I saw those Mustangs over Berlin, I knew that the war was lost." 'Nuff said. Fighter with a longer range and either higher strength or lower cost.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

A quick check on Wikipedia reveals that other civilization did indeed use longbowmen. Of course, the same check reveals that other civilizations used musketeers, carracks, and east indiamen.

And in Empire Earth II, the French UU (for the middle ages to the industrial age) is the CUIRASSIER.

 

[ICNP]

We can't push America's UU back any further. Rifle/Infantry is the cut off point for being useful in a typical game.

American UU:

Minutemen: Replaces Riflemen
Cost: 95 Hammers (rather than 110)
Guerrila 1 as free upgrade

Cowboy: Replaces Cavalry
+1-2 First Strikes
Combat 1 Free

Sharpshooter: Replaces Infantry
Free Drill 1 and 2
Str 22

And German U-Boat sounds excellent.

 

[Gangor]

A quick check on Wikipedia reveals that other civilization did indeed use longbowmen. Of course, the same check reveals that other civilizations used musketeers, carracks, and east indiamen.

However use of the longbow was required by law in England at the time, allowing the English to raise large numbers of longbowmen. Their bows were also more powerful than other bows used at the time. At Agnicourt the archers outnumbered men-at-arms 4-1 or so, whereas in other armies archers served to support the rest of the army.

And in Empire Earth II, the French UU (for the middle ages to the industrial age) is the CUIRASSIER.

But we're talking about Civ, not Empire Earth II, right? There are already cavalry UU's, but no cannon UU's. Besides, in wars of the time cannons had more effect on the outcome of a battle than cavalry, due to the (pretty much) invulnerability of infantry squares to cavalry.

 

[Gangor]

We can't push America's UU back any further. Rifle/Infantry is the cut off point for being useful in a typical game.

Point taken.

Minutemen: Replaces Riflemen
Cost: 95 Hammers (rather than 110)
Guerrila 1 as free upgrade

Cowboy: Replaces Cavalry
+1-2 First Strikes
Combat 1 Free

Sharpshooter: Replaces Infantry
Free Drill 1 and 2
Str 22

Out of them I like the last the best, although perhaps it should appear around musketmen/riflemen? The Americans used rifles (during the war of independence) before other nations.[/quote]

And German U-Boat sounds excellent.

Why, thankyou

 

[ICNP]

Okay looking at the wikipedia article on Snipers, it looks like American Sharpshooters were more renowned during the Rifle period, where they knocked out British Officers, while WW1+2 the Germans and Japanese were the shooting legends. Eastern front also had some remarkable snipers for WW2.

So maybe for the Sharpshooter it should be a rifle replacement.
Sharpshooter; replaces Riflemen
Drill 1 Free
25% Withdrawal Chance

From my perspective this makes the sharpshooter better at wearing down the enemy rather than smashing into a city, as more troops will survive the combat, but not necessarily do more damage to the enemy. I don't want it to be as good as Redcoats (Especially vanilla), but something close. Most of the explanation for America's great accuracy was the fact that hunting was a common sport among all classes, thus providing a wide array of people skilled in Sniping.

I wish I could find something on the French cannons. I think a bonus against Gunpowder would make them too much like the Hwacha, while more collateral doesn't fit. I know Napoleon loved his 12 pounders, and the grand battery, but other than that...

 

[hewhoknowsall]

what if they added in a future age and had future technologies, including futuristic units?

 

[ICNP]

what if they added in a future age and had future technologies, including futuristic units?

You mean like Next War? I believe its included in BtS. Does anyone know what mod it is that gives each civ a second UU?