Some Level 3 spells feel like a Missed Opportunity

[the_fish]

I'm fully in support of giving two lv3 spells per sphere (sorcery/summon, just like old times).

I like the idea of Earth III sorcery interacting with hills/peaks. Generalising "move mountain" on page 1, how about a spell that just turns peaks to hills (which is pretty much always beneficial), within a radius (3x3 or fat cross) of the caster. The AI could then use this to level peaks within (but not at the edge of) its borders, when not at or preparing for war - find the closest suitable peak, path next to it, level it.

Alternatively, some sort of "landslide" spell which deals damage to stacks that are adjacent to a peak might be fun.

(Also, is there anywhere outside of the game where I can view the current spell list and what they do? The wiki is mostly incomplete)

 

[Jules.lt]

As mentioned before, permanent terraforming is almost guaranteed not to happen. Ever.

Which I find makes the Earth and Water spells much harder to find, if you try not to duplicate Tsunami and Earthquake at all.
Making Earth III / Water III alternate ways to get those spells is a possibility, to get direct damage without making very similar spells.

 

[smusebaer]

I'll give it a shot too.
Lots of stolen ideas, many that require tweaking, but it's a complete list that could probably be turned into balanced spells.

Air (air elemental)
- Flight for the caster.
- Whirlwind that pushes all units within 1 tile ( but not on the caster's tile) 1 tile away. Can be resisted. Units in cities have +50% to resist but may be affected. Light units can't resist, heavy units can't be moved. Might make high/low strength affect resistance.

Body (flesh golem)
- strengthen: permanently adds "strong" (or removes "weak" if present) to units in stack

Chaos (wonder)
- summon a strong permanent unit that will turn barbarian (20% chance/turn). Stoneskin ogre? New thing? No affinity. Good for xp / strong but you have to use it fast.

Death (Wraith/Lichdom)
- no need for a new spell

Earth (earth elemental) (This one I'm very unsure about)
- petrify: 1 turn invulnerability for stack, but can't move or cast. Impassable?
- entomb: makes target stack (picked a la pillar of flames) disappear for 3 turns. Can't be resisted, to make it much better than Sun2/Mind2?
- Earthquake? Make high priests of Kilmorph do something else?
- Destroy walls? Bring City defenses to zero.
- Rain of stones? Damage walls, buildings, units, improvements.

Enchantment (spellstaff )
- Move Spellstaff to metamagic
- Summon: permanent magic item (choice from a list: +4 att or +4 def or +2 both);
- sorcery: permanent +1 strength? give mithril? 1 turn +2 strength to stack? 1 turn +1 enchantment affinity to stack?

Enthropy (Wither)
- Summon permanent black hole feature, graphics of the water thing. Entering is certain death. Units 1 tile away have -1 move and 25% chance to be swallowed each turn (only fast units have a chance). Several turns to cast. Swallows caster (and stack) as it appears (makes it harder to protect him while he casts). adds to the AC (10? you lose an archmage...)

Fire (Fire elemental)
- Meteor Swarm (summons 3 meteors)

Ice (Snowfall)
- Summon Blizzard, so you can have it where you want right now. One per caster and no more, of course.

Law (Valor)
- Move Valor to lvl 1, as a weakened version (10% chance to wear off per turn?)
- Rally -> Bring surrounding allies to the caster tile, if the terrain allows it (you can't bring units on mountains/water/land if they don't belong)
- A relatively weak permanent summon with no limit. Angel. No affinity. St of a champion (minus 1?), can use metal weapons, starts with demon slaying.

Life (resurrect)
- Summon spark of life: move 2, strength 1, cannot attack, flying, has "Heal" and "Destroy undead" spells. No affinity.

Metamagic (Djinn)
- spellstaff, in keeping with the "spellcasting support" theme.

Mind (Dominate)
- Big Scary Nightmare: St 8, 3 mind affinity, illusion, fear. Units immune to fear are immune to the mind damage.

Nature (Vitalize)
- Summon grabbing plant

Shadow (Mistform)
- Invisibility for the caster?

Spirit (Trust)
- Summon "Heroic Spirit" permanent unit that gives heroic strength/defense II to living units in stack. Destroys summoner on cast. St 8 affinity 1 Move 2?

Sun (Aurealis)
- Pillar of flames? Chalid can be given Sun 3 instead of a unique spell, or just keep it as is.

Water (Water elemental)
- Flood: temporary terraform into "flood" the caster tile and 1 tile range if they were land. Non-waterwalking units can move out but not move in. Impassable to water-only units too. Destroys all improvements. Needs a river/coast/lake nearby.
- Tsunami. Make Cultists do something else?

I think the old spellsystem is good as it is. we should only add things.
If the spellshere has a strong 3 lev. spell, there is no need for another strong one.

My ideas:

Air:
I think flight is too strong so:
Updraft: temp. light promotion to casters stack

Body:
Stengthen is ok. but a temp spell would be better

Chaos
does not need another spell. Perhaps you could splitt into wonderspell and wondersummon

Death ok
perhaps a spell that turns living stackunits undead?

Earth
Mud Slows all enemys in a radius

Enchantment:
- Walking Fortress
perm. Summon witch grants defence bonus to units on the same square
No attack, can transport 2 Landunits, Move 1 str 0/4
can be sacrifised for a fort.

Enthropy
Turn all units in the stack to plaque zombies.
or summon a horde of Zombies

Fire
Firestorm
like a big blaze, set all wood on fire 1 tile around the caster

Ice:
Summon Blizzard is ok

Law:
Summon Guardian only in citys, permanent summon, no move, ends anarchie in the city.

Life
- Summon spark of life: move 2, strength 1, cannot attack, flying, has "Heal" and "Destroy undead" spells. No affinity. is ok, I would make it permanent and a bonus to health when in citys.

Metamagic:
Spellshield:
Spellresistance to stack (50 %?)for one turn (or until moving?)
. Some antimagic spell is needed.

Mind
Big illusion would be nice. or perhaps a duplicate of the caster with the guard promotion?

Nature
Same as the druids (Guardian vines or Treant...)

Shadow
Invisibility for the caster!


Spirit
Summon anchestor
A unit that grants moral like a flagbearer

Sun
High noon see invisibility of fall units in the stack + 25% vs reconunits. for 1 turn

Water
Tsunami fits very good, and i think both cultists and achmages could have them

or Waterwalking for the stack


my 5 cent

 

[Jules.lt]

Thanks for the feedback, smusebaer

Air:
I disagree that flight is too powerful on an archmage. Druids already exist and I'm pretty sure that mages can cast from Kuriotate airships...

Earth:
Thematically I like the mud idea, but I'm not sure how to make it stronger than Blinding Light and Charm. Range 2? Lasts several turns? Unresistable because it's affecting the terrain, not the units? Earth is a difficult one.

Spirit:
What I was trying to achieve with my Spirit unit was a bit like what you said: a permanent summon that gives bonuses while it's with the stack.
Morale is too weak for a lvl3 spell and flagbearers already exist, though.
The twist I added: making it very powerful, but sacrificing an archmage
A nice synergy with Trust: you won't have to look at this archmage with semi-wasted promotions anymore .

 

[WarKirby]

As mentioned before, permanent terraforming is almost guaranteed not to happen. Ever.

But this makes no sense. It already HAS happened


Scorch
Spring
Vitalise
Bloom
Snowfall

Permamant terrain changing spells already exist in the game.

 

[WarKirby]

the mud earth spell idea isn't much use, IMo.


The Ice sphere already has a slow spell at level 1. I've never used it, but I'm told it's regarded as useless. And I can't honestly see many aituations where it would be useful. Anything fast enough to be affected by it (horsemen) is also going to be fast enough to attack you from outside it's radius of effect, unless you make it huge.

 

[Jules.lt]

I don't have the exact quote here, but they made it quite clear that it wouldn't happen again.
Especially if it involves making passable terrain impassable or vice versa, as the AI can't handle it.

 

[WarKirby]

Metamagic:
Spellshield:
Spellresistance to stack (50 %?)for one turn (or until moving?)
. Some antimagic spell is needed.

I love this idea, but it should be called shell


Final Fantasy <3

 

[the_fish]

I don't have the exact quote here, but they made it quite clear that it wouldn't happen again.
Especially if it involves making passable terrain impassable or vice versa, as the AI can't handle it.

Passable to impassable will obviously cause problems (making paths computed in earlier turns invalid, without telling the appropriate units that they're invalid), but impassable to passable shouldn't. The pathfinder is designed to handle roads and then railroads, so it can handle decreasing terrain move costs (though it might not do so optimally). Removing a peak just changes the move cost from 'infinity' to '2'.

As (unimproved) hills aren't the most attractive routes for units unless they have no other option, I don't think removing peaks would typically invalidate old optimal paths, unless they're really long detours (such as around a particularly extensive mountain range).

(this is all assuming the pathfinder uses a variant of grid-based A*, and computes paths for units based solely on the map at the time of the request. Civ doesn't strike me as the best game to take advantage of a precomputed node graph, given most moves are local and terrain move costs are dynamic)

 

[War Chicken]

I'd vote for reversing the mage/conjuror split we have since some versions.
More spells is more diversity is more fun.

I quote my own text from another thread:

I think the Mage / Conjurer join should be rolled back.
Its a real pity that such a variety of spells and summons fell victim to coherency.
I mean - this mod is NOT AT ALL easy to understand no matter if you got a big magic system or a not so big one.

Besides - that is the only change in the game that has happened so far, that I really dislike.

Yes Archmages and Summoners are / were mighty, but one assassin with commando and they're history. And assassins are way erlier than archmages. Theres a counter measure for everything.

Please PLEASE (BEG BEG) at least consider un-splitting the magic system.

 

[Jules.lt]

I'd vote for reversing the mage/conjuror split we have since some versions.

I think that we should concentrate on things that have a reasonable chance to happen in the main mod. Otherwise, we might as well post in the FF sub-forum.

As to what that is, your mileage may vary...

 

[cIV_khanh93]

You know, that's too high. You can kill 100+ turns of towns with a single archmage sitting on a ship/lake/fortified hill without being punished.

So, numbers should be tweaked but I agree with general idea: give us Sorcery and Summoning as different professions back! (or at least make different spells please)

theair elemental has 4 (6?) movement, add in spell extension II and thats 6 (8?) they effectively have flying (if they dont, they cant move over water, but still mountains) and hve the ability to pillage. Its the same thing as what you mentioned, but already exists.

 

[Calavente]

I'm not sure I agree on all that,
but I still find that archmage having NO lvl 3 attack spell is kinda strange;

you can make
summon adept (death I)
summon mage (death II, law II, enthropy II, sun II for malakim, fire II but not really iceII, )
summon archmage (death III, Fire III, earth III, water III, shadow III, metamagic III, body III ...)

support adept (law, mind, enchant, spirit, body, earth, chaos, shadow, nature ...)
support mage (mind, spirit, air, chaos, enchant, body, shadow, sun, metamagic)
support archmage (spirit, mind, life, law, body)

terraforme adept (scorch, water)
terraforme archmage (ice nature)

battle adept (chaos, nature, body, entropy, shadow, metamagic)
battle mage. (earth, fire, air, body, life, sun). (even in these some are more general purpose buffs than battle spells)

NO Battle archmage (save wither that may have a bane if you are overcouncil). the only battle archmage is a battlemage with spellstaff, casting 2 maelstrom then attacking. kinda insufficient.

some spell are in no category, some on 2, some may be misplaced, but maybe you can get the idea.

proposals
So maybe giving some secondary lvl III spell for SOME mana spheres would be nice.

-I'd like a spell giving the archmage some attack strength or basic until next combat (aka stonskin but for attacking), eventually body III +4-6 or a fire/water III, like +4-6 fire, or +4-6 cold damage...etc, resisted with the fire resistance / magic resistance promo, or +2 affinity to one type of mana depending on the mana this spell is linked to, 100% chance disapearing after combat. (I like the "until next combat" so as not make it unstoppable. sacrifice 1 assassin, then launch the shadow as the spell doesn't work anymore...etc)

-I'd like a spell removing 50% city defense for an archmage. (alternate earthIII ?) It is sufficiently different than earthquake that it should be ok.
-I'd like a spell giving % modifier against elementals. either to the mage, or to the stack 30%-50% chance wearing off. The % being dependant on the spell acting for any untis or just the mage.
-I'd like a spell giving a bonus to any arcane unit (alternate metamagic III?) : invisible for x turns or +30-50 chance withdrawal ... etc.
-I'd like a lvl III spell that makes a lot of damage to 1stack or to area (but this is already done with pillar of flame and crown of brillance ... so I don't have any idea that won't be a variante of those)


As a sidenote, I find that blur is mega powerful for a lvl 1spell as alone, 2xp investment , it can negate at least 17xp (drill I-IV) for as many units as you have attackers.

etc...

 

[Onionsoilder]

Necrobump much, Calavente? Ah well, while we're on the subject, here are my ideas to add to level III:

Fire III: Incinerate
Targeted Spell; 3 Range.
Deals ~40% damage with no cap to one unit.
Deals ~10% damage up to a max of 40% to other units in the stack.

Earth III: Spire
Targeted Spell; 1 Range.
Creates a mountain on the plot.
Deals ~30% physical damage to units on the plot, and forces them off the tile.
Takes 2 turns to cast.

Water III: Deluge
Area of Effect; 2 Range
Deals ~30% Cold damage up to a max of ~60%
40% chance of washing a unit away(moved them 1 tile away from caster)

Air III: Weather
Targeted Spell; 2 Range
Deals ~10% damage, up to a max of 40%
Erodes away mountains to hills, and hills to plains.
Destroys improvements(90% chance) and buildings in cities(20% chance).
Takes 3 turns to cast.

 

[Calavente]

yep, necro
I liked that thread !!!
and I am still is in trouble when I'm unlocking strength of will : what to do with those archmages ?
4 summons don't help you fighting 30-40 unit stacks, or only as a crumble-sweeper. my lvlII spells and divine druides are more potent to attack the city than any archmage !! that was not the case when you could summon meteors... by pack of 3. but now !?! (save for water elementals that help soften many units)

the only interest of an archmage in a city attacking stack is for wither, and for spellcasting lvl II spells 2times, once in a while you will use a summon to soften the big badass that protect the city but thats all, and you can do it best with horse-archers with 85% withdrawal or with cats !!

so yes !! I'll necro that thread.

 

[kumquatelvis]

I think y'all are missing one of the main reasons that the the two spellcasting schools were merged in the first place: artwork. Having separate casters requires double the amount of archmage artwork, and adding summons means even more new artwork. That burden alone is going to prevent the magic line from ever forking again.

 

[Calavente]

lol !!
we are not (well at least I am not) speaking about changing back to the two spellcasting schools.

it is just that I think arcane tech lacks powerful attack spells. those are only on the religion path.
plus there is a lack of a battle archimage.
I would really like some mana spheres to have secondary lvl III spells.

death III is double ... and it is one of the more powerful mana sphere even without the lich spell.
maybe the good passive effect mana shouldn't have a second lvl III spell. but elemental magic lack passive effects and the spells are not "so much more powerful than -life, enchant, mind ...etc)
it is true that nature gets affinity with druids, fire may eventually get affinity with a magic object and brigitte, air may get affinity with the rod of winds... but those last two do not compensate for not having any passive effect.
body III : it is overpowered. I never use it as I feel almost like cheating... I would like to have some secondary spell here

if you specialise your adept/mage, : buffermage vs combat mage...
just when you reach archimage you have an issue :
the late buffermage with enchant, mind, metamagic, water becomes the archimage you need up on the war front (spellstaff, dominate, djinn, water-elemental as you may have many manas) and you need to give him attack spells as maelstrom/wither/fireball to take full advantage of the spellstaff.

on the contrary, some combat-related mages with lawII, life II, natureI and nature II, have to become buffer-archmage (valor, resurrection, vitalize)
and other combat related mage with airII, fireII, entropy or death do not have THE combat-mage spell : enchant spellstaff ! you want to upgrade the mages to combat-archmage but you have to spend 3 more promotions if you want that spellstaff !

there are some mana spheres that are well designated, but IMO, the repetition of the
"lvl III = I summon a unit that has stats a little different than the other summons" lacks in appeal.

2 meteors with half strength of 1 fire elemental would be different than summoning an elemental (you just have to rename it as meteor, the art being identical to a meteor) maybe it won't be so different in the mecanics, but flavor-wise and game wise it would really be different and not a "all lvl III are elemental summoning"...
well maybe I should make that change myself.

this is overly simplistic as I do not differentiate terraformers vs city buffs vs unit-buffs nor summoner vs unit-insta-fight-buff vs damage-dealing-mage. as you may want to do.

 

[Nor'easter]

I think y'all are missing one of the main reasons that the the two spellcasting schools were merged in the first place: artwork. Having separate casters requires double the amount of archmage artwork, and adding summons means even more new artwork. That burden alone is going to prevent the magic line from ever forking again.

You might be right about the artwork issue, but I actually think one of the main reasons for the merge was that most of the summons (except for things like Floating Eye) were basically melee units, differentiated primarily by their stats and mana affinities, but not fundamentally all that different from each other. So streamlining probably made sense.

 

[readercolin]

Hmm... will have to look through this thread more while I'm doing my magic overhaul. Interesting ideas (some I agree with, some I don't).

-Colin

 

[lemonjelly]

Instead of splitting Summoning and Sorcery, why not letting archmages choosing a free promotion:

Summoner
+50 Summon strength
-50 Sorcery strength


Sorceror
-50 Summon strength
+50 Sorcery strength



So you will be able to specialise, but you wouldn't need new artwork and you have a choice. (Don't choose any, normal Archmages.) It allows all Archmages to use all spells, but your summoners will be berrer at summoning and worse at sorcery. And the other way round.

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