1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Some Level 3 spells feel like a Missed Opportunity

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by WarKirby, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. Corlis

    Corlis Warlord

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    200
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    As a level 2 spell it would rather be stepping on the toes of Waterwalking. Also, there would be very few counters to putting a mage on top of a peak and letting him rain down Fireballs/Malestroms/Various summons.

    For the spell system, I wouldn't mind having a few of the summons spells put into lower level spheres, with appropriate nerfing, because as it is the Summoner leaders are pretty screwed until the late game.

    (Also, I love Enchantment mana. +20% to Melee? +1 Strength to Archers? Better burst damage for Archmages? +Happy in all cities. Yes please!)
     
  2. Domingo

    Domingo El Desaparecido

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Corea -_-
    Perhaps just disabling spell casting while over impassable terrain would do the trick.
     
  3. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,943
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    that should work.
     
  4. SwampCow

    SwampCow Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    Red Sox Nation
    Oh man do I second this. I know they streamlined but now that the game is in its final iteration and they are just polsihing via patch, it would be great if Kael and Co. revisited the separation of these schools into different units. I loved being able to create both conjurers and mages. I was very disappointed when they combined these units.

    Back in the day, I could use my summoners as defensive units while my archmages were part of offensive stacks. It was a huge help when trying to defend choke points and port cities without wasting too many resources on naval units of defender units.
     
  5. Gelvan

    Gelvan Prince

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
    576
    I don't believe that this will come back.
    Rather than going back, I would suggest to add two technologies.
    After you have researched Strength of Will you can build Archmages who can take lvl 3 spheres.
    Then you can research either Summoning or Arcane Studies. Summoning would grant the known Summons, but permanent like the skeletons.
    Arcane Studies would improve the might of all spells. lvl 2 summons are stronger, fireballs do more damage, water would improve plains to grassland, rust would be permanent.
    something like that.
     
  6. algolly

    algolly Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    I also liked the separation into conjurers and mages. Would it be possible to mod this back, or is that not possible. Would like to have conjurers and mages again.
     
  7. jwin

    jwin Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    NY
    Where were all you people when the original discussion involving joining conjuring and sorcery took place? I felt there were few of us fighting to keep them seperate at the time. If more people had spoken up, they might have stayed seperate.

    As it is, I think there still should be ways to specialize mages toward one or the other. I suppose you sort of can, in that a conjuror really only needs one mana type and combat promotions to be succesful, while a Sorcery type guy would probably have more spell types. However, combat promotions help both summons and spell damage, so it keeps more overlap.

    Maybe have combat promotions and seperate summon combat promotions, but make each level of empower more poweful.
     
  8. Kenjister

    Kenjister Swimmer

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    464
    Location:
    SoCal
    Even now, I don't think it would be smart to do the full split again. I don't know how many people posting here played before the merge, but it was waaaay unblanced. Most of the spheres were useless too. I think that's the big thing, that there was too many spells that didn't really do anything important.

    Now, as I said earlier, I think it would be possible to split the top tier without getting any redundant spells and confusing the new players, but then it would certainly throw the balance of the game back toward favoring the magic line like it used to.
    I would love to see the top line split though, as right now Archmages might as well be renamed Summoners.
     
  9. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,230
    Location:
    Kael's head
    I was thinking that I would bring back the distinction between Summoners and Archmages but not Mages and Conjurers in my modmod, but I'm thinking it might be better just to let every tier 3 spell sphere promotion have at least 2 spells.
     
  10. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    How many niches are there for summons to fill?
     
  11. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,366
    Location:
    Western Australia
    if we are creative enough we can create niches for summons to fill. for example there are currently no 'true' mage defender summons (im talking permanent summons with defender, guardsman and first strike promos) there are also no summons that that can be used effectivly for spying, stealth or infiltration (mistform is ok, but more of a combat summon) such a summon should have things like being permanent, have invisibility, ability to travel through rival territory and id bring back a few special spy missions for such summons to do.

    there are also no 'worker' summons, im talking summons that are able to build improvements at a faster rate than workers, and possibly even unique improvments that workers cannot normally build.

    there are no summons that can be used to transport units (summoning a Roc for example could create a bomber type unit with 1 unit transport capacity)

    there are lots of potential niches that havent been exploited.

    definately.
     
  12. mo123567

    mo123567 Worst modder ever!

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    278
    WarKirby, I love a lot of your ideas. Way more interesting than the summons. The tornado idea is my favorite. Of course the damage and percentages would have to be fine tuned to maintain balence but I would love to see a lot of these implemented. I won't hold my breath. Maybe a modmod will do it.
     
  13. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,362
    Location:
    Universe
    I like magic in general. I use as often as I can get it, in any play that has the option of such a think. When I play FFH, either Amurites or Shaeim, I try to specialize my magic users in 3 categories: Summoners, Supporters, BattleMages.

    I cannot describe my frustration when they, eventually, all get down to... Summoners??? I wish the spell spheres to be more specialized. Let's get a closer look:

    Support:

    Spirit
    Mind
    ---------------
    Nature ?
    Enchantment ?
    Shadow ?
    Metamagic ?
    ---------------

    Summon:

    Death
    ------
    Air +
    Fire +
    Water +
    Earth +
    Shadow +
    Entrophy +
    Sun +
    Metamagic +
    ------------

    Combat:

    NONE

    Mix:

    Nature
    Enchantment
    Shadow
    Metamagic
    Air
    Fire
    Water
    Earth
    Shadow
    Entrophy
    Sun
    Metamagic
    Life
    Law
    Chaos
    Ice

    ? : Means this sphere concerning specialization, cannot be taken by an Archmage.
    + : This means usefull, as a specialization, only to an Archmage

    Details follow for anyone that wishes to understand what I mean.
    Spoiler :

    Water II and Earth II are utterly useless. So, basically, water has one spell for the bulk of the army(Create stone wall). This can be counted as a City Support spell. But then, stone elementals are very strong. So, the only reason to take this sphere would be if you plan to have a Summoner Archmage, so, specialization ruined. Water is left with one spell for the bulk(create spring), which can be counted as a terraforming spell, thus uselless for support, however, usefull in a set of situations. I would call it a "misselaneous" type of spell. Again the only reason to get water is to get the water elementals((thus targetting to an Archmage-Summoner), which where nerfed and now split only one instead of two times...Death is the magic of Summoners, fine with me. At least it is a specialized sphere. Law is a mix of Summon/Support. Nature is a mix of Support/Terraforming(?), but can be taken as support only for the bulk of the Mages, so, its alright. Enchantment is fine for the bulk as a support line, but the third level spell is not worth to have an Archmage slot wasted... Entrophy line....(sigh)...a mix of support/summoning. The third level is a waste of an Archmage slot,IMO, and never bother to get it. Air/Fire, those contain the most usefull Battlemage spells at the second level, and have the most uselless first level spells...I would prefer a haste spell as an Air level I and a fire bolt spell as a fire level I. And level III? Please! I cannot have a BattleMage at an Archmage level?? Why should it be Summons??
    Chaos: Well, a chaos...I could not say support. Say it experimental sphere. You keep only the quickblades, and thats all. Next. Shadow. One of the most usefull troop support spheres...But again. Level III had to be a SUMMON!! Life: A mix of spells. Can be great for Undead Slaying Battlemages for the Destroy Undead spell, but level I and III are kind of Support spells(sigh). Spirit: A great! This is a nice support Sphere. Specialized. Mind. Another support sphere. However, the Domination spell will be better not to vanish if failed once. I would say, add a 10 turn delay to recast if failed, for the next casting, of course. It is a pitty to waste an Archmage in such a way. Metamagic. Support Line except...well..Level III again...a summon. Ice, as Illians, hmph...Does not worth it. Needs remaking. Sun. A Mix of Terraform/Support/Summon.


    So, please, let us specialize! Remake the mixed spheres and give us more battle spells.
     
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,943
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    Thunder_Gr does make a very good point in his "details explained" spoiler. and Psychic Llamas had a great idea about giving some summons special abilities. a permanent uber worker at creation 1 would be awesome for example.
     
  15. Jules.lt

    Jules.lt Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Cork, Ireland
    I am absolutely convinced that there should be second third level spells for every sphere, and it would make sense for one to be a sorcery spell and the other a summon.

    I don't think that summoners and archmages are ever going to be separated, though, and I'm not sure that it would such a good thing anyway. The archmages need a boost: doubling their lvl3 spells list to choose from sounds just right. Either as a direct bonus (a la Death III) or as a separate promotion (split "[spell sphere] III" into "[spell sphere] Summoning Mastery" and "[spell sphere] Sorcery Mastery")
     
  16. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,362
    Location:
    Universe
    I forgot the body sphere on my previous message, which is a nice Support sphere, if you disregard the fact that Level III is, again, a Summon...:cry:
     
  17. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,366
    Location:
    Western Australia
    id like to know what the team thinks about all this... are we just arguing with a brick wall for no point or are our suggestions being heard and taken into account? (im sure they are)
     
  18. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,388
    Location:
    Earth
    I can't talk for Kael or anyone else on the development team, but in my observation the team is very interested in player suggestions and in feedback from the community.

    However, I do think we should recognize that in this thread, for instance, has many people on opposite sides of the fence. Moreover, we should recognize that people who want to change the status quo tend to be more vocal than people supporting it. An example of this tendency was the never ending 'I hate Civ IV' threads from Civ III players who got accustomed to winning Civ III on Sid and got crushed in Civ IV and said the game wasn't fun.


    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  19. Jules.lt

    Jules.lt Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Cork, Ireland
    er... absolutely not?

    While there is a wide range of ideas as to what the new spells should be and how it should be implemented, I think we can say that the people in this thread unanimously wants additional 3rd level spells.

    I understand that this is a lot of work, which is why we're not asking for total change, or going back to the old summoner/sorcerer differentiation, but rather a small addition for the end-game when the player wants to enjoy his achievement of having archmages more fully.
     
  20. hiphopin

    hiphopin Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Messages:
    141
    Location:
    "Look behind you"
    Obviously people want change in the magic tree. Something needs to be done about it. And I totally agree there needs to be more sphere 3 spells.
    And why can't there be more spells with unique effects? It doesn't all have to do damage.

    And im not sure if this has been said before, but my solution is have two different sphere 3 choices per sphere, when one is taken the other cannot be obtained. For the AI however, they would automatically get both to keep things fair.
     

Share This Page