Some questions on liches, and on unit religion

Zongo

Warlord
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
161
Hi all,
I have some newbie-like questions, whose answer I did not find anywhere else in wikis, forums, pedias, etc.

Liches

1) Are Liches "true immortals" like the actual immortals, or do they die once and for all?
1.5) If they are not immortal but get bathed in the blood of the Phoenix before dabbing in dark rituals of undeath, do they keep the immortal promotion after going to the dark side?
2) How many of them can I have - are they national units so limited to 4? What happens to race promotions once undead, do they disappear or can I get sturdy dwarven liches?
3) If a lich reading the grimoire get changed into a devil, does it become and undead demon or does it lose its undead nature?

Religions on units

4) what happens if i have a unit of a certain religion and update it to a unit which is hard-coded to another one, does the unit get two religions or the latter replace the former? I mean, none of the religions in the game are monotheistic in an exclusive way, right?
 
New question:

5) if I upgrade a priest, with the divine promotion, to a druid, will the druid be able to cast divine spells? If so, which one? The one associate with the priest unit religion, since the latter should stay on?
 
Those are some tough questions. I have a few answers:

1) I'm pretty sure Liches don't have any immortal promotion at all and are done with one death.

2) Liches are considered national units and limited to four. But it is a way to get another 4 channeling 3 units.

For a few of these other questions I think these are the answer

1.5) I'm pretty sure that if you upgrade a unit it keeps the immortal promotion

3) I think it would loose undead

4+5) I don't think you can upgrade priests like that. I think A priest only upgrades to a High Priest or maybe to a Paladin. I don't think you could ever upgrade say a Veil priest to a High Priest of Leaves. I also don't think you can upgrade them to Druids.
 
2) unit can only have 1 racial promotion at a time
5) yes, priest-upgraded druids will be able to cast their specific spells, like summon balor and ring of fire for AV or Pillar of Fire and revelation for empyrean. Paladins and Eidolons also can get their tier 1 and 2 spells.
 
1) I'm pretty sure Liches don't have any immortal promotion at all and are done with one death.

Thanks. Pity though, we all know what REAL liches can do (wink wink Kael).

2) Liches are considered national units and limited to four. But it is a way to get another 4 channeling 3 units.

Got it.

1.5) I'm pretty sure that if you upgrade a unit it keeps the immortal promotion

Good to know, otherwise I am subjecting my too-old-to-die liches to glory everlasting.

3) I think it would loose undead

That is what I suspected.

4+5) I don't think you can upgrade priests like that. I think A priest only upgrades to a High Priest or maybe to a Paladin. I don't think you could ever upgrade say a Veil priest to a High Priest of Leaves. I also don't think you can upgrade them to Druids.

You can upgrade them to druids. I am not sure about the possibility of a ritualist becoming a luridus, but consider that the elohim assassin, the devout, can upgrade to some, but not all, of tier 2 religious units, depending on the religion of the moment.
 
2) unit can only have 1 racial promotion at a time

I believe that demon and undead do not behave like the other racial promotions. Sometime I popped some dwarfs from a dungeon, and one of them got possessed by a demon in another lair. I am almost positive I got a demonic dwarf as end product: a mad, drunken, enraged wretch very fast on hills, looking for things to bash his head into.
 
Hi all,
I have some newbie-like questions, whose answer I did not find anywhere else in wikis, forums, pedias, etc.

Liches

1) Are Liches "true immortals" like the actual immortals, or do they die once and for all?
They don't have nay immortality in the main mod, although I tend to give it to them in my versions.
1.5) If they are not immortal but get bathed in the blood of the Phoenix before dabbing in dark rituals of undeath, do they keep the immortal promotion after going to the dark side?
Yes
2) How many of them can I have - are they national units so limited to 4? What happens to race promotions once undead, do they disappear or can I get sturdy dwarven liches?
They are national units and you are limited to 4, but technically those two facts are independent. The normal national unit limits on;y apply to building/upgrading units. Kael had to use some python code to place a similar limit on Liches are they are created from a spell.

I'm pretty sure that in the current version Undead overwrites any previous races, but not so in some old versions.
3) If a lich reading the grimoire get changed into a devil, does it become and undead demon or does it lose its undead nature?
I think it is replaced, although it is possible that adding a racial promotion using python as does that spell outcome might not overwrite it like adding a promotion in xml does.
Religions on units

4) what happens if i have a unit of a certain religion and update it to a unit which is hard-coded to another one, does the unit get two religions or the latter replace the former? I mean, none of the religions in the game are monotheistic in an exclusive way, right?

If a unit upgrades to a unit that does not have a religion hardcoded in its xml defines it keeps its current religion. Otherwise, its religion changes to tha of the unit to which it is upgraded.

The game does not have the capacity to handle units with multiple religions.

Only the Luonnatar (and Cassiel, who differs from the Luonnatar in that he does not believe The One True God has any need or desire for worship) are exclusively monotheistic, but most of Erebus's religions could probably tend towards henotheism. I think these faiths tend to view it as only possible to be truly devoted to one god at a time, although they acknowledge that the worship of other gods of the same alignment is acceptable or even commendable.


The Order is pretty strongly henothiestic. They strongly condemn evil religions, are suspicious of neutral ones, and demand that other good ones support their war efforts and desist from sermons that could hurt the resolve of the crusade lest they be shut down.

The Empyrean is more tolerant and peaceful, but are perhaps even more zealous at fighting demons (mostly because it is still a young faith).

RoK seems pretty henothiestic, and also has strong racial (dwarven) ties. Kilmorph is honored by many humans too, but the religion may not be exactly the same. She values tradition, so local traditions may vary. The Khazad considered it a great dishonor when the Maros, the Unberguard, heir to the position of sacred champion of Kilmorph, abandoned Kilmorph and his people to join the Order and the Bannor to continue fighting demons. They hold those who follow Mammon or Aeron in contempt and shun them at all costs.


The Fellowship of the Leaves doesn't exactly worship any god, but rather nature itself. They greatly venerate Cernunnos, Sucellus, and Amathaon, and possibly also other gods like Arawn and Nantosuelta.


The Council of Esus is pretty tolerant of other faiths, except the worship of Sucellus. At their council meetings they have at least once agreed to sent AV ritualists to serve in all the members courts. However, on other occasions Esus has shown that he does not like his fellow evil gods' plans for Armageddon and would rather his followers fight to save the world for him to keep messing with it.


The Cult of the Octopus Overlords is polytheistic, and their gods may well be more powerful than the other gods of Erebus despite not really being gods. I tend to think that a god's subconscious is far more powerful than his conscious, plus not bound by the compact, so these nightmares from the corners of Danalin's/Hemah's mind are terrifyingly strong. They are innumerable, and they all hate each other. Cultists don't worship them per se, as devotion to one would anger the others. Instead they try to play them off of each other, and frequently alternate which dread creatures to honor based on their interests at the moment.

The Ashen Veil seems to be polytheistic, with Agares as a supreme deity. Lesser demon lords that are worshiped compete for worshipers, power, and Agares' favor. Agares encourages them to compete for his affections, but does not go so far as advocate they war against each other and try to usurp him like the demons of Cammulos do. Agares doesn't really do much (or at least doesn't seem to, but that could be because he does like to destroy what he could instead corrupt and so is among the most peaceful evil gods), so the other evil gods are quite important in this faith too, although they each have their own cults too.


The Emrys are closely allied and very similar to the Ashen Veil, but they seem to view Agares and the other evil gods as mere puppets of the ultimate power, Ceridwen.


Mammon does not like his followers to know they are worshiping him,prefering they think that they serve only themselves. He did give some special signs to his followers in the Stewards of Inequity though.

The White Hand demands that no god but Mulcarn/Auric Ulvin be worshiped. In the Age of Magic Mulcarn's temples were largely ignored while almost every other god received lavish sacrifices (even gods like Arawn who couldn't care less got more respect), which turned him into a very jealous god.
 
They don't have nay immortality in the main mod, although I tend to give it to them in my versions.

I'm pretty sure that in the current version Undead overwrites any previous races, but not so in some old versions.

Thanks. If there is a lobby group to make liches true immortals, sign me in :)

I understand the logic of undead replacing races, but still, I liked that very short (un)lived undead dwarf... If I had been playing the Balseraphs, I would have renamed a city in his honor.
 
The Dwarves can't build archmages, so how could they have Death III in the first place?
 
Uh, sorry. That was a DEMON dwarf, got from a possessing spirit in a dungeon.
Drunken, raging, demonic dwarfes running fast on the hills.

One could have had a dwarven lich in basic FfH2, too, by playing the Luchuirp.

Another weird question: a demon or undead casting "wonder" has a certain chance of getting turned into a baboon (lose the racial attribute) according to the (outdated) manual. If this is still the case, could this method be able to "undemonise" spellcasters?

And now for a simple newbie-like modding question: how to I mod liches to be true immortals like the "immortals"? Can it be done in XML? I suppose so, but I have 0+ (zero + XML banana monkey) modding experience.
 
The Dwarves can't build archmages, so how could they have Death III in the first place?

The Khazad cannot build Archmages, but their cousins the Luchuirp certainly can.


Undead Dwarven Drowns were the first unit to come to my mind though.
 
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