Some random obervations from the streams

[Siptah]

Question related to the military AI:
Do CS need strategic ressources to upgrade their units? If so, they will be pretty easy to conquer at some point (just wait till they can't upgrade due to missing resources). They spam military units, but don't upgrade as it is now. Most units after the ancient era need a resource to have it. Wouldn't it make sense for CS to build resource free units like the spearman/pikeman instead of lots of warriors that can't upgrade to swordsmen? What about giving them one or two strategic resources each for free as a standard just to make them better defended.

 

[Haggbart]

No. Let's players do a lot of planning under the hood. They are really strong players.

I'm not arguing weak/strong on a binary basis. But I'm saying that achieving Quill's amazing tech rate with lucky eurekas, doesn't know how district yields, specialists or most adjacency bonuses work and failing to repair pillaged improvement etc. shouldn't be possible. IMHO such tech rate should require you to do everything right, and that should not include "get lucky".

 

[Plus Ultra]

Marbozir cycled through the cities.

Good to know. Have we seen a "list of cities" with details on their yields, districts, buildings, etc? That would be nice.

Overall UI is likely to see some fixes/additions before and after release. Also, a good place for mods.

Agreed. I'm not worried, most of my UI concerns are just small details.

It equals to the strongest ranged unit available for you, if I understand correctly. This looks ok for me, no more city slaughter.

Not sure about this one stealth_nks, taking a city should be harder that what I'm seeing. Its all a matter of taste, but I don't think we should be able to take a city with 1 catapult and 1 swordsman, when the city has walls and a ranged unit inside.

I'm not arguing weak/strong on a binary basis. But I'm saying that achieving Quill's amazing tech rate with lucky eurekas, doesn't know how district yields, specialists or most adjacency bonuses work and failing to repair pillaged improvement etc. shouldn't be possible. IMHO such tech rate should require you to do everything right, and that should not include "get lucky".

Quill18 is a Deity player playing on Prince. His tech rate is amazing due to:

-Conquest (2 capitals, 5 cities total since early eras)
-Suzerainity with 2 Scientific City States.
-Access to Mercury (Science bonus).
-Campus built, science focus in several cities.
-High-pop cities due to tile-yields.
-Built Great Library and Oxford University.

Eurekas are just the icing on the cake here.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I agree it isn't Eurekas alone, but there's an argument scientific progression is too fast regardless. Alternatively, if it's just because he emphasized science over everything else, that's a suggestion that science-focus is too powerful.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I agree it isn't Eurekas alone, but there's an argument scientific progression is too fast regardless. Alternatively, if it's just because he emphasized science over everything else, that's a suggestion that science-focus is too powerful.

Maybe, maybe not.

Conquering your two closest wonder-building neighbours and then focusing your big empire on anything on Prince difficulty is too powerful. You've already won at that point.

Now Science focus vs Culture focus? Gold focus? No idea yet, right? Therefore, the problem is not really Science itself, but the difficulty or (potentially) the AI itself.

 

[Haggbart]

Quill18 is a Deity player playing on Prince. His tech rate is amazing due to:

-Conquest (2 capitals, 5 cities total since early eras)
-Suzerainity with 2 Scientific City States.
-Access to Mercury (Science bonus).
-Campus built, science focus in several cities.
-High-pop cities due to tile-yields.
-Built Great Library and Oxford University.

Eurekas are just the icing on the cake here.

To be clear: I'm not dissing Quill. He's playing well, but my point is that teching is too fast.

And calling eurekas icing on the cake is absurd. If they were removed altogether, how many extra turns do you think that would add?

 

[Jabulani]

Despite I like many civ videos I dunno why 98% of the videos that I have seen are played by schizophrenic players who output 1500 words per minute and even worst, they keep on tilting the screen like they were heavily heavily doped.

Why ?

 

[Ikael]

The problem is not Eurekas are too strong, it is that the base cost of technologies doesn't seem to have been scaled up in order to account for a regular 50% discount. Not getting an Eureka is the rare thing, not the opposite. Not getting an Eureka should be a handicap, so to speak, so there are a certain number of techs that are a hard nut to crack, either due to your empire's circumstances (landlocked empire trying to get maritime techs) or due to their own strategic value (rocketry).

Something along these lines would be fine:
Research writting tech: 20 turns
Research writting tech with its Eureka boost: 10 turns (8 for China)

Eureka'ed techs should be treated as the regular tech cost, considering how easy is to get them.

Otherwise, if they want to keep the whole regular cost to tech, they should then up the Eureka requirements to ridiculous levels of complexity (Ex: Eureka for writting: Build 2 scientific districts adyacent to each other).

 

[Sansa_Stark]

This is really minor thing, but I think I saw somewhere that standard Factory gets 3 production and has 6 tile range. So it means Japan's Electronics Factory gets only +2 culture bonus, and not extra range like we thought before.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I think normal factory give +3 production. Japan get +4 production and +4 culture (only in home city) upon discovery of electricity.

 

[Plus Ultra]

And calling eurekas icing on the cake is absurd. If they were removed altogether, how many extra turns do you think that would add?

The fact that Eurekas reduce the time to research a tech doesn't mean they are the reason behind Quill's fast teching. That is absurd.

The developers expect the player will trigger some/most Eurekas and Inspirations, and therefore balance research times accordingly.

They don't expect a Prince-level player to conquer his two wonder-building neigbours with 7 units and little effort on the first eras.

In other words, doing exactly the same as Quill18 did on this gameplay on Civ V (Prince difficulty - Deity player) has similar effects: You are 1-2 eras ahead of anyone else, without the need for Eurekas.

 

[x2Madda]

Everything is on Prince difficulty........ (AKA Easy mode for people that really know how to play Civ).

I can see many of those things being teaks built into the difficulty settings. The big one being how AI offers deals. I don't see them offering those same deals on higher difficulties. I'm also not sure if tech gets more expensive as the difficulties go up.

At least that's my hope anyways. I never beat Civ on Diety difficulty, but Beyond Earth I beat on the highest difficulty with incredible ease. I really really really hope that the game retains Civ 1-5 decent difficulty settings and doesn't get infected by Beyond Earth being jokingly easy even at the highest difficulties.

While I agree with you, remember this is a double edged sword. If on Prince its super easy and fast for players, then the converse is true on higher difficulties for the AI, who traditionally also get reduced production costs and field super size armies. This means that unlike Civ5 where you play catch up (and try to survive) that in Civ6 you try to survive and also hope the AI doesn't win BEFORE you can catch up due to faster science and the new religious victory.

 

[rezaf]

Civ5 really spoiled you all in throwing around Deity as the goto default difficulty for experienced players.
In the olden days, when playing a new Civ iteration for the first time, Prince pretty much ensured a fairly challenging game.
Even on Warlord, researching Nuclear Power whilst an AI researchs Sail (what basically happens in Quill's stream) was extremely rare. It required them to be isolated and fairly small.

Maybe I'm unfair towards quill, but while he's looking at tooltips and often contemplates his choices, for the most part he's basically derping around (albeit in a pretty smart fashion), and that by playing this way he can be a millennium ahead tech-wise of his competition doesn't bode well for Civ6 in my book.

 

[Bridger]

Everything is on Prince difficulty........ (AKA Easy mode for people that really know how to play Civ).

Prince is the highest difficulty before the AI starts getting special bonuses (if the difficulty levels are named the same). If this is the best AI can do when it's on the same level as the player, even immortal is going to be easy :\

 

[Sansa_Stark]

I think normal factory give +3 production. Japan get +4 production and +4 culture (only in home city) upon discovery of electricity.

Where do you get this info from? Is it only Japan's factory which gets improved on Electricity? Anyway, I was just comparing factories at the time you build them, and culture seems to be the only difference.

 

[Haggbart]

The fact that Eurekas reduce the time to research a tech doesn't mean they are the reason behind Quill's fast teching. That is absurd.

The developers expect the player will trigger some/most Eurekas and Inspirations, and therefore balance research times accordingly.

They don't expect a Prince-level player to conquer his two wonder-building neigbours with 7 units and little effort on the first eras.

In other words, doing exactly the same as Quill18 did on this gameplay on Civ V (Prince difficulty - Deity player) has similar effects: You are 1-2 eras ahead of anyone else, without the need for Eurekas.

So first you're arguing that it's expected that he got the eurekas for the tech pace, and in the end you conclude he didn't need them?

Again: I'm not saying that he didn't do things right, I'm just saying that if you by coincidence/luck get 5 more eurekas than someone else in a game that would make a HUGE impact. When people rushed liberalism in cIV for ONE free tech that was huge, how is 50% on a whole bunch of techs not significant? Sure, you can always argue that he might be punished on higher difficulty levels for not making production, gold and culture a higher priority, but that's pure speculation. All we know is that by playing well (but not perfect), taking out some neighbours and getting a lot of eurekas you can blast through the tech tree incredibly fast on prince level. If you say that conquest has such snowballing consequences, maybe that's something to consider as well?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Marbozir show the electronic factory while Quill18 rome game part 12 show the normal factory.

Factory: 6 tiles +3 production
Electronic factory: 6 tiles +4 production (+4 culture after electricty to home city)

 

[leandrombraz]

- Goverment legacy bonuses should be capped at some point, no? Especially when you consider the America unique ability.

If I got it right, it have a cap, it's the percentage you see when you choose a government, e.g. (this isn't numbers I got in the game, only an example) 20% great person points, which you get 1% every 5 turns. So once you reach 20%, you stop getting legacy, it's the cap.

 

[Haggbart]

If I got it right, it have a cap, it's the percentage you see when you choose a government, e.g. (this isn't numbers I got in the game, only an example) 20% great person points, which you get 1% every 5 turns. So once you reach 20%, you stop getting legacy, it's the cap.

No, see Marbozir's video on civics. On classic republic you get 15 % bonus on great people, plus 1 % each 15 turns. So for America it's 1 % each 7,5 turn (dunno how it's rounded). But as I said in a later post, I misread somewhat and was thinking it was 1% each 5 turns by default on all legacy bonuses, which it isn't (the number of turns differ quite a bit for different governments).

 

[BigChiefLizzy]

While I agree with you, remember this is a double edged sword. If on Prince its super easy and fast for players, then the converse is true on higher difficulties for the AI, who traditionally also get reduced production costs and field super size armies. This means that unlike Civ5 where you play catch up (and try to survive) that in Civ6 you try to survive and also hope the AI doesn't win BEFORE you can catch up due to faster science and the new religious victory.

And also that most players are not 'Civfanatics' with years/decades of knowledge (or presumed knowledge) about how the game works. I can see new players getting wrecked very quickly on Prince level, just because of the Barbarian swarm... they never knew was coming because they haven't seen the streams or played the game for years, build your capital - great time to build a worker - 'I get more production/growth now, got to be a good plan?' Or worse a settler that gets grabbed by a barb camp and they have to get it back with no military support, as any tile improvements get trashed by barbs. Then a 3 way War declaration, and they only have a starting warrior and 2 workers

Personally I think the Eureka moments are a bit OP, but Rome not needing iron for Legions? WTH?