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Some Unit Lines, Yay!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by WildWeazel, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    These are some unit lines I've come up with for a theoretical generic mod* that I've been pondering for about 4 years now. You may, but probably don't, remember some previous threads on this nebulous project. The thing is now in its third incarnation, at least in my mind, so I'm making it as concrete as possible before I wander away from it again.

    Anyway, I'd like some feedback from the community once again. I'm trying to establish solid and varied unit lines without making them too complicated or numerous. The primary goal of this mod is to enrich and expand gameplay without complicating it. The player should have a handful of units available at any point in time, each with a specific strength.

    The chart is fairly simple: Units are placed according to timeframe (row) and purpose (column). The listed eras loosely correspond to half a tech era. Units upgrade to the units below them, unless marked with a "do not enter" symbol and/or arrows. The exception is the "Other" column, which includes various units as accurately as I could fit them into the chronology.

    A brief explanation of a few lines:
    -Heavy Defense is your standard city defender, but note that I'm using archer units for defense, a la Rhye's mod.
    -Support is well-rounded infantry, cheaper but less powerful than Offense.
    -Light Cavalry is faster but less powerful than Heavy Cavalry.
    -Mobile is fast defenders, not replacing Light Cavalry except in speed.


    The units shown are intentionally European in appearance. I'll probably attempt culture-specific flavor graphics at some point. I'm more concerned with chronological correctness than style for now. Most Firaxis units will be replaced with custom equivalents.

    Without further ado, the chart:


    Here are some things in particular that I'm not sure about:
    -Ancient units. I like the spearman, not sure about the others.
    -Classical units. This is a great group of units, but is this too early for them?
    -Renaissance infantry. Umm... I have no idea.
    -Colonial cavalry.
    -Defense line from Industrial onward. Accurate? Is a Gatling gun too specific?
    -The Grenadier/Musketman -> Rifleman merger. At this point the offense line upgrades into the support line. The Rifleman is more powerful than the Grenadier, but from here on cavalry/armor will be the most powerful attackers. A marine force, which will have better offense than support units, must be built up separately, as nothing upgrades to them. Is this too complicated?
    -Unit names, particularly the ones marked with (?)


    *BTW, I'm calling this thing Legacy, at least as a working title, so please nobody use that name for another mod :p
     
  2. kulade

    kulade Deity

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    First the Ancient Age. Move the "rider" to the ancient group and replace its current position with Romanesque graphics like those in the Ancient Cavalry unit. Use the Generic Civ3 Archer if you can instead of that conspicuous medieval-ish archer. You may also want to change the first heavy offense unit, in mind that swords were relatively unused as primary weapons pre-Iron Age. Axes are an option.

    The Classical units are pretty, but you should aim for more Greco-Roman styles rather than Barbarian. Don't be afraid to use nearly all Romanish units, as most of Rome's neighbors mimicked their style anyway.

    The name "Cataphract" has got to change. Cataphracts are exclusively heavy cavalry. You may want to rethink the Horse Archer as well, but I seem to be going blank on cavalry alternatives. :D

    The Man at Arms should be replaced by a Halberdier or something more common, plus that guy just looks tacky with his pistol. :p

    And the Gatling Gun is a somewhat silly idea. Go with "Trench Infantry" or something like that.
     
  3. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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  4. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Horseback riding wasn't common, at least in war, until the Iron Age, so I think I'll stick with the chariot only for the ancient age. Good call on the axe though. If I use a bronze axeman in place of the swordsman I would also move the Warrior to the offense line.

    I'm using mostly "barbarian" style units because, if I incorporate flavor units, this will be the European line, and the Greco-Roman units will become the Mediterranean line.

    How about Hussar instead of Cataphract? Is Cataphract a better name for the classical Horseman?

    I thought about a Halberdier. I was trying to make the melee to gunpowder transition less abrupt. Personally, I like the Man-at-arms.

    I agree that it's somewhat silly, but I couldn't come up with anything better. Trench infantry would really be an upgrade of the Rifleman, not a contemporary. I was going for early to mid 19th century units. I should probably shift the scope of the eras to 1800-1900 and 1900-1950 or something like that, because the technology of the two World Wars was much more similar than the 1800s and WWI. Thus Trench Infantry would be the "World War" era support unit alongside the Machine Gun.

    I'd like to incorporate a near-future age, but with 3 tiers of units and techs in the modern era, things would be very tight. There would hardly be time to build units before they become obsolete (which, on second thought, is how things work in the real world these days :))


    Thanks for the help!
     
  5. Miles Teg

    Miles Teg Nuclear Powered Mentat

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    First of all the unit lines for out mods have scary similarity. Don't worry, our working names are nothing alike.

    I'd definitely recomend the Hussar over the cataphract.

    Horseman could probably be replaced with some sort of early proto-knight. Not sure what it's name would be.

    I would recomend a Landsknecht or some other mercenary over a foot knight
     
  6. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    Looks nicely thought out :thumbsup: Suggestion: add a dragoon for the 19th Century and you'll have an interesting unit and an upgrade for the Pistolier. One more comment: I would think Infantry would upgrade to modern infantry, which makes sense in that paratroopers IMHO should start their own line (BTW, for the modern-most era, I have both Marines and Paratroopers upgrade to "Special Forces", obviously not the small groups of reality, but larger units; I think this makes it easier on the AI). Regardless, :clap:

    Best,

    Oz
     
  7. Sandris

    Sandris Rise and Rule

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    Where did you get Pistolier and Cuirassier units ? I`ve never met them before on the forum. :))
     
  8. aaglo

    aaglo Furioso!

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    The pistolier is english dragoon - not available yet (it'll be a part of the sometime-in-the-future-upcoming historicanada mod - part 2 - like that gatling gun up there.)
     
  9. Miles Teg

    Miles Teg Nuclear Powered Mentat

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  10. Keroro

    Keroro Dororo: Ninja Frog

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    I'd perhaps have a ballista as ancient artillery, replaced in classical by catapult. I'd also consider replacing the ancient age swordsman with an axeman - I think Utah did a good one. Cataphract I'm sure should be removed - the first cataphracts appeared Before Christ, so having them appear so late would seem wrong. Perhaps cataphract could be replaced by Dragoon, ancient Horseman replaced by Cataphract? Also, I think Horse Archers would come earlier - perhaps in place of the Rider?

    I'm not really that good with the gunpowder age on, so I'll leave it there. :)
     
  11. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    Steph converted a "Pistoleer" (and many more as well) from another game; check out the links in Steph's sig.

    -Oz
     
  12. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    Just in case you want to draw inspiration, here's my current layout:

    bowman-> archer-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> heavy archer-> fusilier-> gatling gun-> machine gun-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> modern machine gun


    spearman-> pikeman-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> medieval spearman-> halberdier-> line infantry-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> AT rifleman-> bazooka-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> AT infantry


    swordsman-> heavy swordsman-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> man-at-arms-> arquebusier-> musketeer-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> infantry-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> modern infantry


    chariot-> horse archer-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> light cavalry-> hussar-> cavalier-> carabineer-> armoured car-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> modern armoured car


    Horseman-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> Heavy Cavalry-> knight-> cuirassier-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> early tank-> tank-> (New Era, Graphic Change, Not Upgrade)-> main battle tank

    ----------------------

    Those are the basic lines. I've several others, like the Artillery line, Plane lines and Ship lines too.
     
  13. kulade

    kulade Deity

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    Hussar, maybe. But the term "Cataphract" is typically only used for Persian/Byzantine/Eastern cavalry. European nations from Rome onward never really used heavy cavalry until knighthood.

    Well, Halberdiers were in use deep into the development of gunpowder, and would probably need to be in the game, as they were more prevalent in the 1700s-ish than firearms.
    Well, I guess the bottom line is that not ever time period had its own special unit, let alone did every culture fill the same gaps in military. You should probably aim (as a frame for this mod) to have accurate military development within individual cultures, not just fill in boxes. Plus, the game will end up like the same thing from 4000BC to 2020AD.
     
  14. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Miles Teg: A Landswhat? :lol: Would the Man-at-arms graphic work for that, if I replace its current position with a Halberdier?

    Oz: I thought about adding a Dragoon but didn't know where to put it. Are you suggesting between the Pistolier and Cavalry? Weren't Dragoons infantry that traveled on horseback?
    My logic behind the infantry upgrades was to differentiate light and heavy infantry without making more disconnected lines that necessary. With Marines already broken off from the Offense line, I kept the heavy infantry in one line and combined the others into the modern light infantry, Airborne Infantry.

    Quinzy: Thanks, those are helpful.

    kulade: That's true (about culture/military variance) but for the sake of gameplay there needs to be a continuous chain of upgrades for defense units, at least.

    I think I'll make the following changes:
    Cataphract -> Hussar (new gfx)
    Horseman -> Cataphract
    Rider -> Horseman
    Man-at-arms -> Halberdier (new gfx)
    Foot Knight -> something?
     
  15. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    My pleasure Weasel Op.
    I also have a sort of Slingers and Javelineers all the way to Grenadier line, merging to Infantry later on.

    EDIT: On Cavalry:

    I'd have Chariots be part of the Light Cavalry thread, seeing as they were used for skirmishing and as archer platforms mostly. Cataphracts were the knights of their day, so i'd keep the name for early the early heavy cavalry and use something like Hussar for the thusly empty slot.

    In Summary:

    Chariot -> Rider -> Horse Archer -> Hussar -> Lancer -> Cavalry

    Cataphract -> Knight -> Cuirassier -> Pisotlier -> Cavalry
     
  16. Miles Teg

    Miles Teg Nuclear Powered Mentat

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    A "Landswhat" was a German mercenary during the late 15th to the late 16th century. Mercenary companys formed a huge part of Renaissance and at their height the word "mercenary" was little more than shorthand for a Landsknecht. They mostly used pikes, but Arquebuses, really short swords, and really huge two handers were an important part. Kinboat did a landsknecht unit. His is armed with a two hander.

    Whatever you use I'd recommend against the term "Foot Knight" for a Renaissance unit.
     
  17. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    Hi Weasel Op,

    Yup, you can just stick those dragoons right between Pistolier and Cavalry - yes, they can be thought of as "mounted foot soldiers" but weren't necessarily deployed that way on the battlefield (i.e., they could fire from horseback).

    Also, despite the appealing Firaxis graphics for the "Medieval Infantry", "Foot Knight" is an oxymoron - yes, knights fought afoot (most famously English vs. French) but they were always equipped with horses (that was the entire military point in having knights), and no foot soldier would slog into battle weighted down with a plate-mail knight's armor.

    Best,

    Oz
     
  18. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Here is an updated version with several changes:


    Can anyone suggest a good modern howitzer/heavy artillery unit, like the M198 or M777? I've found dozens of WWII artillery pieces but few modern ones besides rocket or self-propelled artillery. I'm also looking for a generic 17-18th C. grenadier (with a grenade animation) but I don't think any have been made.

    edit: Oz, would the Dragoon be appropriate in place of the Pistolier instead of after it? I don't think there will be enough time before Cavalry for another upgrade.
     
  19. LouLong

    LouLong In love with Rei Ayanami

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    I have slight pb with the crossbowman. Although it appeared even earlier in China it only spread to Chrsitian countries during the XIIIth century mostly after discovering them from the Muslims during the Crusades.
     
  20. Keroro

    Keroro Dororo: Ninja Frog

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    A small thing about the cataphract - it should have more armour on the horse IMHO. How about using the excellent graphic you have for cataphract to horseman (where you have the Firaxis unit) and using a heavily armoured horeman unit for cataphract?
     

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