SOR01 - Special OCC

[Grimjack]

Shakes is actually a very good wonder for a 20K OCC, it is a hard one to get also, involving two nonessential techs that the AI nevertheless prioritizes.

We will have to worry about that later. For now I think we nede to worry about survival

Andrew, do not forget to sign peace. Do fold over demands, even unreasonable ones. It is almost a certainty that whatever the demand is, having a peace talk will be much more expensive.

Grimjack

 

[soren]

Originally posted by AndrewN

Edit(again): Soren I disagree. Bachs and Sistene are the must get wonders for both happiness and culture. Shakes, Cop and Newtons are the nice to have ones

Well...Bach and Sistine may be must-have, but Shakes, Cop and Newtons are also must-haves. If we want to be in a good position in the tech race, we need the last two, and shakes gives 8 culture, takes care of unhappiness, and serves as a free hospitol. And I think Bach and Sistin, though maybe must haves due to their culture production, don't matter much in terms of happiness since we already have enough (MM (3), Temple (1), coulosem (2), cathedral (3), Shakes (12?), and spices (1)). Nontheless, we should try to get all of these

 

[soren]

Originally posted by AndrewN


Soren, we seem to be cross posting like mad at the moment

I looked at it last night and I'm sure the civopedia said 8 culture per turn. The value for Sistene was a guess but is probably pretty accurate. It could be the pedia is wrong

mad indeed

I"m pretty sure bach is 6, the only over 6, which produces 8, is shakes. And yes, Sistine is 6.

Good luck playing

 

[AndrewN]

Firstly an apology. I seem to have been very confused today and I got my great wonders mixed up. In all my posts please swap all mentions of Bach's and Shakesphere's wonders. To summarise we want to build Shakesphere's Theater (+8 content citizens in city, allowed to grow above size 12, +8cpt) not Bach's cathedral (+2 content citizens in every city, +6cpt). Sorry

That said, inhereted turn. Not much to say, we have 1 city GL due in 5, Currency in 2. We are the tech leaders, by a long way.

1) 775BC

Currency due next turn but I can't drop the science rate. I don't make peace with Portugal, the cheapest is with lit which is still a monopoly and I can't sell it round as everybody else is broke.

2) 750BC

Currency in, research monarchy in 16 at 90% for Hanging gardens. I would hope that construction will pop out of the GL but we are so far ahead of everybody else there is not much chance of that.

3) 730BC Zzz.
4) 710BC
Korea wants Mysticism. I really hate doing this. OK

5) 690BC
Great Library completed . Start library due in 2.

6) 670BC Zzzz.
7) 650BC
Golden age ends
Inca complete the Pyramids
Shields drop from 23spt to 15spt and the library is 2 shields short . Monarchy is due in 13.

 

[AndrewN]

8) 630BC
Library completes. Monarchy now due in 7.
Constantinople grows to 8, 17spt, 64 commerce per turn
I start the great lighthouse as a prebuild for the HG due in 18.
Looking round the Aztecs have construction , with a bit of luck somebody else will get it in the next 7 turns.
We have 542 culture, Inca is second best with 272

9) 610BC Zzzz.
10) 590BC
Construction pops out of the GL [dance]
We learn engineering I wanted mono
The people me and they build a (small) palace
A Portugese galley turns up. I think its peace time. At least two other civs have it so he can have construction.
I discover we had war happiness. Lux has to go to 10% to compensate.

11) 570BC Zzzz.
12) 550BC Zzzz.
13) 530BC
India found Jaipur on the coast near Constantinople. We are getting surrounded here.

14) 510BC
Portugese complete the Oracle
Drop science to 70%. Monarchy due next turn.

15) 490BC
Inca demands mapmaking . This is still against my nature but I cave. They thank us as say our generosity will not soon be forgotten. As if. And by the way, the Inca's fear our warrior, our single warrior
Monarchy in. Mono started, due in 16 at 90%. In a perfect world we will get feud out of the library before we have to research Education.
Constantinople swapped to HG due in 12.
Our Curragh's have met on the far side of Portugal. There dosen't seem to be much land left to discover and they are costing up 2gpt. I think they should be dispanded, but I will leave the decision to the next player, in the meantime they will head for home.
At 90% research, 10% lux we are making -4gpt with 54g in the bank. The HG are due in 12 turns (48g) at which point we can set the lux to zero. We have enough money providing nothing happens We could get a few hundred gp from the other civs by selling tech (India has the most at 143) but there is no gpt to be had. I don't make any deals as spare money is just an oppurtunity to the othere to extort it.

16) 470BC Zzzz.
17) 450BC Zzzz.
18) 430BC
Zulu's want Masonry

19) 410BC Zzzz.
20) 390BC Zzzz.


Thats it folks.

Summary: Constantinople is size 8 and grows in 8. The HG are due in 7 and we are researching mono due in 11.

Our wonderful city

Notes:
When the HG are complete we can switch off the lux tax.

There is MM oppurtunity in Constantinople. We have a 2 shields, 3 commerce tile or a 1 shield 5 commerce tile that can be used.

We still have a colosseum that can be built, but we might want to leave it until after the cathedral.

We are still way ahead in tech, but there is not much money about.

and the save

 

[yoshi74]

We could get a few hundred gp from the other civs by selling tech (India has the most at 143) but there is no gpt to be had. I don't make any deals as spare money is just an oppurtunity to the othere to extort it.

I have to disagree on this. As long as we have tech lead they will extort techs. Unless we have a really big pile of money (>1000) extorted sums are mostly cheaper. Also i will one again mention that gpt-deals could be the last bit another civ needs to declare war on us. Were an weak, small civ and this isn't a good position to sqeeze the money from bigger ones.

 

[Grimjack]

Got it
Grimjack

 

[soren]

I took a look at the save, and here's what I think, as far as the tech-tree:

I think we should research in this order:

1) Monotheism (gives us chathedral - 3)
2) THeology (sistine chapel - 6)
3) Education (gives us university - 4, note: maybe we should slide research to the left until we get free fuedalism from GL)
4) Astronomy (Copournacous - 4)
5) Music Theory (Bach - 6)
6) Banking/PP
7) PP/Banking
8) Democracy
9) Free Artistry (Shaks - 8)
10) Fued (note: unless go for free from GL)
11) Invention
12) Gunpowder
13) Cemistry
14) Physics
15) TOG (newtons - 6)

If we can, we can try building a cathedral, univeristy, and collusem in between. If not, after. Our path also depends on how other civs are doing tech-wise (and thus wonder-wise). Maybe we will buy off the lower wonders (by lower, I mean the ones on the bottom) with the ones we have. Copurnicous, Shanks, and Newtons are a 100% must have, bach and sistin we should really try to get (if only one, choose sistine since bach requires researching an extra tech).

I'm assuming we're getting the Hanging Gardens. It if very possible that someone will complete the LIghthouse and the others will cascade to the HG.
EDIT: silly me, i didn't realize until now i could just play and see for myself. Everything is good, we get the HG (unless whoever is playing, which I highly doubt, changes our building process).

I'm looking forward to seeing our empire, er, city, unfold.

 

[soren]

By the way, does anyone know how culture from aging works? Does it apply to wonders too?

 

[Grimjack]

Aging affects wonders too. When the cultural building is 1000 years old, it gets double the cpt.

Grimjack

 

[yoshi74]

3) Education (gives us university - 4, note: maybe we should slide research to the left until we get free fuedalism from GL)

no, i don't think so. It will delay the whole culture research path. We can however tone down the research pace somewhat to get education when sistine completes. But i think we can easiely trade for fuedalism, so i don't worry to much about. When we can get feudalism/invention via GL, thats great, otherwise trading is always possible.

 

[Nad]

@Soren: I know you organized this game, but please do NOT tell us what is going to happen! If we KNOW that we're going to get the Gardens it removes the element of suspense from the game, and I, for one, do not enjoy playing games where I know the outcome. So please, the game is far more exciting if we're always on tenterhooks .

Good luck, Grimjack, we're doing very well so far so let's keep rolling. I'd favour the top branch research path, letting the AIs research the bottom branch...don't be at all afraid of expiring the Library, we got it for the culture as much as anything. The two wonders to favour for me are Copernicus and Newton, Shakespeare 3rd choice, the rest are pure bonuses.

 

[Nad]

Originally posted by yoshi74




I have to disagree on this. As long as we have tech lead they will extort techs. Unless we have a really big pile of money (>1000) extorted sums are mostly cheaper. Also i will one again mention that gpt-deals could be the last bit another civ needs to declare war on us. Were an weak, small civ and this isn't a good position to sqeeze the money from bigger ones.

I agree that we can expect many demands from the AI, but as for actual war, the only civ we have to fear is India, as long as we keep our neighbours sweet we're okay. Once the AIs have gpt to offer for techs I woud not hesitate to accept, use their cash to fuel our research.

 

[soren]

Originally posted by Nad
@Soren: I know you organized this game, but please do NOT tell us what is going to happen! If we KNOW that we're going to get the Gardens it removes the element of suspense from the game, and I, for one, do not enjoy playing games where I know the outcome. So please, the game is far more exciting if we're always on tenterhooks .

Nad: you are totally right. Sometimes I forget thing, and this happened here. I'm not used to this SG thing (first ever), so I didn't realize what I'm doing. Sorry, everyone

I guess you changed from Polite or Gracious to Cautious or Annoyed, perhaps Furious . Maybe I can give you a "token of goodwill"

 

[Nad]

Originally posted by soren


Nad: you are totally right. Sometimes I forget thing, and this happened here. I'm not used to this SG thing (first ever), so I didn't realize what I'm doing. Sorry, everyone

I guess you changed from Polite or Gracious to Cautious or Annoyed, perhaps Furious . Maybe I can give you a "token of goodwill"

Nah, I'm on permanent "polite" . Except in Off-Topic Forum, then I'm permanent "furious" .

 

[yoshi74]

While india is our biggest threat, everyone who can ship more than a warrior at the moment is a BIG threat at the moment. Hell, even a warrior can break us.
Also the gpt money does not increase our research much. We can only put 100% of the commerce our city produces into research. Gpt takes care of the small upkeep we have, but thats it. We can't put the rest of the money into research anyway. I try to avoid gpt deals because i heared several times at the board that this could increase the likelyhood of war. And we have max aggressivness already.
We can take them, but well... hopefully i'am wrong

 

[Nad]

In my experience, I don't think civs will declare war on us just because we are receiving gpt from them...rejected demands, bad attitudes, aggressive settling and such make the threat greater, from the experience I have. It will be interesting finding out .

Right now we don't have much military but there will come a time when we do, and that is when gpt from other civs will help. That time is usually in the industrial age, once we have a factory and can build stuff very quickly, and then buidling lots of units will help with security. In the meantime, even though gold we receive can't be used for research, it will go to build up our treasury, which is similarly very important in an OCC, since there will come a time when the other civs will outresearch us simply due to size. The more gold we can save up for later the better, to buy resources, techs, upgrades etc. Remember, an AI will NEVER demand more than 100g in cash from you (though they will demand techs), so saving up is not that much of a risk, occasionally we'll lose some cash, but overall it is to our benefit.

 

[AndrewN]

I agree we need to keep researching at 100% along the top of the tree. We could research PP before education to get a little bit more out of the GL but we have already got one tech which saved us about 13 turns.

At the moment we are at least 3 techs ahead of all the AI's and most of them are much further behind. India dosen't even have writing, but they do have a nice pile of cash so that might be a worthwhile exchange.

PP might be useful as most of the world dosen't know each other and we could get techs for contacts. The problem with feudalism is it is going to be expensive as it is now a government tech

I'm not sure how extorting works because in most of my games tha AI only does it once but a little extra cash will go a long way to keeping us at max research.

We have 1 warrior. We should really build a couple of spears just to stop the sneak attack.

 

[yoshi74]

Yes, having rifleman (or even infantry when we can trade for some rubber) and artillery makes us quite invulverable, at least until nukes are ready. But till then we should have won already
Also at this time we have time to build a military, because our importent wonders are already build.

@edit: spears will be our best bet till rifleman, unless we can trade for something (unlikely, the ai is somewhat bad at connecting enough resources). So they won't help for a long time. When we have some spare time, we can toss one or two in, but too much cost money and may delay the wonders we need for winning to much

 

[soren]

Originally posted by yoshi74
Yes, having rifleman (or even infantry when we can trade for some rubber) and artillery makes us quite invulverable, at least until nukes are ready. But till then we should have won already
Also at this time we have time to build a military, because our importent wonders are already build.

@edit: spears will be our best bet till rifleman, unless we can trade for something (unlikely, the ai is somewhat bad at connecting enough resources). So they won't help for a long time. When we have some spare time, we can toss one or two in, but too much cost money and may delay the wonders we need for winning to much

I don't understand what you mean by "because our importent wonder are already build." First of all, we don't have shakes, copurn, newton, back, sistine, etc. yet....unless that's not what you meant.
EDIT: okay, i see that yoshi mean the industrial age when speaking of "this time"