Sort of a challenge for all of you from a near perfect start

[loosscru]

I am trying my hand at the oracle -> MC -> Pyramids slingshot. I have played through a few times from this save and I can get the mids around 1000 BC without a problem, but then I lack direction. I assume it is my worker moves that are killing me, but I do not know for sure, which is why I posted this, challenge is a bad term, but the best I have, so I can see what the more learned and experienced players can pull off by 500 BC.

Why I called it a perfect, or near perfect start- the starting location looked good, but the goody huts popped Animal Husbandry, Bronze working and 2 scouts. At that point I saved it and figured if I cannot rule the world with a mighty score from this start then I need some serious help. Additionally, I have already researched Agriculture, and am almost done with the wheel.

Attached you will find the screen shot 13 turns in (first worker will be complete in two turns) This is Freddy, Normal, Noble etc... Vanilla Civ 1.74(?) standard stuff. There are three conditions to this challenge.

1) you have to go for the oracle -> MC -> Pyramids slingshot to launch a SE economy (if you are unfamiliar with the strategy check out http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178995)
2) Post your situation at 500 BC
3) do not gripe about the starting location, or the first few choices made. There is always room for debate but Berlin was founded where the settler started and the Wheat, Ivory, Cows, Gold, Grasslands, forests and hills did not dissuade me from sitting down right there. Furthermore, Agriculture was the first research followed by wheel and I would love to see the math on how that can be a deathblow to starting a civ. (Lastly, no, I do not have the 4000BC save).

Looking forward to see what you fellow civ fans can do, how you did it, and I hope this is fun.

The screenshot is attached, but if someone wants to host it and post it, please, be my guest.

Edit: Just to clear up a few of the first posts made- the Oracle->MC->Pyramids may not be the greatest, best at higher difficulties, etc... but on this start I went for it and this "challenge" is about using it and a specialized economy.

 

[lymond]

Well it's not BTS, so I won't be playing it, but I don't know maybe someone will - not many non-BTS players around. Anyway, you should have a 4000BC save in your autosave folder, unless you started another game in the interim.

I would like an understand the "Oracle > MC > Mids" slingshot to an SE Economy logic. Yeah, Mids is great for early SE, but I don't get the Oracle > MC part. You can start Mids well before Oracle and you don't need MC for it. I'm not seeing the "sling" part here Anyway, generally for me Oracle > MC is great for Industrious leaders ( not sure what Freddy is on vanilla). However, Oracle > CoL seems a better approach to an SE economy.

Start is pretty good, I would not call it great. To me lots of food is great, but grass cows is a great tile and you do have +2 happies. Anyway, on Noble this start = "Game Won".

 

[Agramon]

Oracle-MC-Pyramids slingshot. Used to be very popular in Vanilla and Warlords. Got nerved a bit (cheap priesthood). Now tight prerequisites and timeframe only make it possible.

Prerequisites tested up to emperor, slightly risky on IMM: Phil civ. Favored starting techs. min, agri, myst. 3 x 3f tiles and 3 forest in 1st and 2nd city. 2nd city needs overlap otherwise upkeep screws techrate. Early settler and 2nd worker. Capital starts preproduction on Monument and/or baracks as does 2nd city. prechop heavily in 2nd city. Whip/chop oracle. Whip/chop forge ASAP in 2nd city. 3 GEP will eventually catch 2 GPP from Oracle. Get GE build pyramids. If you keep going like this another GE will show up before Prophet takes over. There's a showcase game in the ALC Germany Oracle MC Slingshot + SE.

For higher levels very seldom used Oracle-MC-Gambit. Oracle+forge in capital. GE at slightly less than 50% will net you mids.

 

[tinstaafl]

The oracle->mc->mids is probably trying to get the mids from an early engineer from a very early forge. Can be done if you oracle metal casting and complete the forge in i think 8 turns with a philosophical leader (so you don't spawn a great prophet from teh oracle first).

It's an old idea which surfaced very early in the game's life when slingshots were all the rage, but it didn't really hold up.

EDIT: Yeah, i was beaten to the answer

 

[loosscru]

Well it's not BTS, so I won't be playing it, but I don't know maybe someone will - not many non-BTS players around.

This is a Vanilla strategy and a study of efficiency. If you have never tried it, you should, even though it is just Vanilla.

Anyway, you should have a 4000BC save in your autosave folder, unless you started another game in the interim.

This is a game I have come back to a few times to get it right. So no, I do not have a 4000BC save. However, the advantage of the save I do have is the popped AH and BW techs which will matter and would be an unfair advantage to anyone else trying the same map without the same luck.

I would like an understand the "Oracle > MC > Mids" slingshot to an SE Economy logic. Yeah, Mids is great for early SE, but I don't get the Oracle > MC part. You can start Mids well before Oracle and you don't need MC for it. I'm not seeing the "sling" part here Anyway, generally for me Oracle > MC is great for Industrious leaders ( not sure what Freddy is on vanilla). However, Oracle > CoL seems a better approach to an SE economy.

In Vanilla there is no Philosophical Industrious leader. The strategy here is a specialist economy with a philosophic leader for extra great persons. The idea/strategy/advantage of the oracle-> MC-> pyramids is that you can gain the pyramids through the use of a Great Engineer, instead of building it, 23-25 turns after you create the oracle. This can be done prior to 1000bc. One of the limiting factors in how fast this can be accomplished is based on how long it takes to get the science completed and in this start bronze working was provided by the goody hut.

If you are unfamiliar with the strategy check out ALCS #7
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178995

Start is pretty good, I would not call it great. To me lots of food is great, but grass cows is a great tile and you do have +2 happies. Anyway, on Noble this start = "Game Won".

Yes it is a win, the question is how much of a win, which is why I was interested in seeing where people can get by 500bc. Also, there is a wheat (on plains) 2N of Berlin. So I think this is a pretty great start and the goody huts made it near perfect for this strategy, which brings me back to my original question, if it is so perfect, why do I not have a greater advantage come year 1.

To put it another way, I am sure a better player than I can do much better with this start that I have done and I would love to see it. Of course, if you are not familiar with the stratdgy or if you have only played BTS, then give it a try, it might be fun.

 

[loosscru]

It's an old idea which surfaced very early in the game's life when slingshots were all the rage, but it didn't really hold up.

I don't know if it didn't hold up or not. I think it is still a viable play. I will agree that Warlords and especially BTS rendered it moot. But in Original Civ IV it has some life left in it, and again, it is a great teaching tool which is why I posted it.

 

[loosscru]

Here are the pyramids at 950BC I am sure they can be done sooner. It is really an issue of worker turns.

 

[lymond]

Ah...it's all clear to me now. I should not be one to speak to vanilla strategy for sure. I do play the vanilla gotms, but I often feel lost on it since I got into the game after BTS. This strategy might help out.

 

[lymond]

As an alternative, I built the Mids straight up in 1320 BC. I still built Oracle > MC as well. Of course, I could have finished Mids much sooner without Oracle or just built Oracle in the second city. This ploy seems wasted on Noble level, but is probably great on higher levels. However, just for the purpose of executing the ploy by a certain date regardless at this level, that has merit. I settled on the marble to get Oracle the quickest, but that is at the expense of quick food which is needed to get up the Forge asap with an already growing developed city. Probably better settle near food first and pop for the marble.

Did you build those 2 extra scouts or pop them from huts?

Spoiler :

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Getting the pyramids or oracle is usually an either / or thing I don't see why you'd bother with getting both. Or why in god's name you'd waste an engineer on building the mids. If you're going to use a GE to build a wonder you should pick something that someone else is likely to get if you don't build it quick. The mids don't go for a long time usually even on deity.

Also if you have stone and or the industrious trait you can get the pyramids way earlier then 1000 BC by chopping forests. If you don't have stone or the industrious trait it's kinda a waste of time, and I'd rather use a GE to bulb something nice like guilds or machinery.

 

[loosscru]

I should have added, I am playing this ploy/gambit on noble to try and get the steps and timing down without the penalties of higher levels.

Lymond, while you can get the mids nice and early by rushing to them, I am wondering how that effects your next 1000 years. I.E. how much did you have to give up to pull it off that way. With the oracle->MC->mids you do not have to rush the oracle (in fact getting it too soon means you loose the GE) which gives you time to build up infrastructure, saves more forests for health, and uses less chops to have workers develop more.

To be sure, this is not an instant win strategy and the starting location and difficulty level mean that average players should have no problem winning regardless of how they proceed.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Why exactly do you need both pyramids and oracle? Getting pyramids is nice, getting the oracle is nice, but I don't see what major strategy could be achieved by in investing enough to get both. It's nice having both but I just don't see any major long or short term goal achieved by this. Actually by delaying settling in exchange for getting the oracle you might actually be behind in tech because you can't capitalize on the early representation with lots of towns running 2 scientists.

 

[vranasm]

if you go oracle and mids you should go Oracle->CoL with Mids and switch to caste instead of slavery and run some serious early scientists.

I think I did something like it in one of the games I posted here. Emperor Gilgamesh was it? It was suggested to me by Grashopa because there was a ton of food around

 

[AbsoluteZero]

if you go oracle and mids you should go Oracle->CoL with Mids and switch to caste instead of slavery and run some serious early scientists.

I think I did something like it in one of the games I posted here. Emperor Gilgamesh was it? It was suggested to me by Grashopa because there was a ton of food around

Good point, however I'd just build the mids and forget the oracle and expand to as many towns as I could get then self tech to COL using the rep bonus, which might actually be faster in the long run and certainly safer ( in the sense that I wouldn't lose the oracle race ).

 

[lymond]

Looscru - This is Noble level so it really does not matter what I do. Getting both Oracle and Mids and rexxing is very easy on this level. However, as you move up levels this ploy may make more sense.

As for getting the Mids earlier than later, you can also look at what you gain as well. Early rep scientists that will get you teching faster and all more expansion without worrying about the slider - not that this is a worry anyway. AZ makes a good point that it's often better to choose either Oracle or Mids. However, AZ is a high level player and on higher levels you really do have to make a choice.

Although I didn't play it that way and this was just an exercise really, I could have just built Mids in Berlin and whipped Settlers/workers to get it faster - thus actually using my "expansion" builds to actually speed up the Mids. Then simply build Oracle in the Marble city. I would probably actually go for an easy Civil Service sling on this level with Oracle.

 

[loosscru]

I think there has been a communication failure, and I think it is my fault. Yes it is on Noble, and you can win without issue, the challenge was not can you get to a winning position, but more of a sandbox play, to see if you can get a Specialist Economy up and running effectively by the 500bc - 1ad time frame.

AZ there is no delay in settling, if you go worker-> settler by the time the settler is built you still do not have the tech necessary to oracle which leaves you room to build a barracks, which will complete about the time you can start on the oracle. All the while you are actually developing your tiles instead of chopping every tree you see. Once the oracle is built, you can grab Metal Casting, build a Forge in City #2 in the next 4-6 turns, with the help of 3 or 4 chops, start an Engineer specialist. 17 turns later you have a GE and the pyramids on the next turn. This gives you lots of time to build units or other settlers/workers.

Read the first bit of conversation on the ALC Game i linked. They cover allot of this debate early on.

Lymond - the earlier pyramids are nice, but they can't pay off Representative bonuses until you actually have specialists working. Under my planned path you can have libraries (which you would want with or without the caste system) you can use for the scientists and skip the earlier CoL as there is not enough food to support more than 2 specialists anyway. Obviously, the closer you get to 1AD the more that will change.

If the only goal were to get the pyramids as early as possible, then the way to do it would be to pick an industrious leader, find a start with stone and whip your way to the pyramids. Not the goal here, just a step along the way.

Instead, the goal was to start up a Specialist Economy (the goal being freedom from the research slider) by developing heavy food towns (to support the specialists) and the Pyramids for representation. Obviously this works best with a philosophical leader so your Super Science city is also cranking out Great Scientists which can settle, academy, or bulb techs. I was trying to find the, not fastest, but most efficient, way to go about doing so hence the Oracle to Metal Casting to forge pop the GE and create pyramids, and going forward, the next Great Person is an Engineer as well, in time to pop the Great Library. CoL could be useful, but probably easier to build the libraries (all these cities only need a granary, and science building (library early on). At higher levels, theaters and use the culture slider to keep things going as you do not need it for science. Other benefits may be the quick and easy upgraded armies with all the spare cash, etc....

If think the gambit is a waste, then show me a more effective specialist economy at year 1. If you think the Specialist economy is a waste, then you miss the point.

 

[vranasm]

you should check this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10082774&postcount=33 post and

this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10083245&postcount=35 save leads to the 325BC report according to Grashopa.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

If you have so much time that building the oracle does not slow down your expansion then you should oracle something like bureaucracy not MC. Or feudalism or guilds or whatever. In the long run that's much better.

With a start like you have there a cottaged Bureaucracy capital would be way better then running lots of rep scientists anyway. And don't forget that if you burn a great engineer building the mids you have to wait a loooooong time to get a great scientist to build an academy.