Sources of Science

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by supracseduch, Mar 4, 2016.

  1. supracseduch

    supracseduch Warlord

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    As you know, the latest patch removed the base science per citizen.To compensate for this change, the tech costs were significantly reduced (except in the final eras), and several buildings now provide science as a percentage of a specific yield.

    In one game, I entered the Classical Era at around turn 110 in Standard pacing, with a mere 6 :c5science: science per turn. I realized that I had absolutely had to build Councils after I noticed that my research was far slower than I'm used to. I was dead last to enter the next era.

    In my last game, I went Progress and entered the Classical Era at turn 64, with only 4 science per turn. The Progress opener is overpowered right now. Not only because it gives science in a patch where science is rare, but also because the amount of science it gives is unchanged despite the lower tech costs. It's absolutely worth it to get it as your first policy even if you plan to complete another branch.

    In both of the above cases, I researched 7 ancient techs before going for my first Classical tech. In both cases, it was Writing. This tech is, as expected, really good right now. I feel that Councils and Libraries with specialists are absolute musts in every city as soon as possible, mostly because they're the only constant sources of early science. And you're gonna want to counteract the science penalty per city, even though this penalty is less severe this patch.

    Of course, there are buildings that provide percentage science yields and I imagine that they can all add up to eventually exceed the science per citizen mechanic. This means that the early eras are slower, while later eras are just as fast or slightly faster, which I personally think is great. (It's hard for me to say since I have not completed a single game this beta. I only made a few tests.)

    I'm all for slower ancient eras, but not so slow that it lasts 1/5th of the game's duration. There are 8 eras in total so we expect a Standard era to last 62.5 turns. A player who isn't particularly into science should reach the Classical Era by turn 85 or so after researching most Ancient techs, but this isn't what happened to me.

    I think it's best if we introduce a few more early sources of science and raise the tech costs. This is to prevent science buildings from becoming too valuable.

    Spoiler A few ideas :
    One idea I have is to give a national yield of +1 :c5science: per discovered tech. There are only around 11 techs per era so this bonus won't increase too quickly, and would probably be negligible in the long run. It's just enough to devalue the early science buildings without making them useless. It also slightly devalues beelining, since you gain science faster if you research the cheaper techs first.

    And I personally don't like that Shrines give 20% of :c5faith: faith as science. Cities that generate faith are presumably benefiting from religious beliefs already. This is enough of a boon on its own. Cities with religion are at an advantage over cities without religion throughout the game. No need to further inflate their advantage.


    What are your thoughts? How was your experience of the new science mechanics so far?

    Edit: Here's a list of science-giving stuff compiled by pandasnail. Well done!
     
  2. notque

    notque Artificially Intelligent

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    I have several games in, and am about to play another.

    First 3 Games Tradition - Got wrecked on a much lower difficulty than I'm used to.
    Last game Progress - So easy it was like a knife through butter.

    I don't know if I'm just getting better at dealing with the mechanics in the patch, or it was just the huge improvement that going progress gives you, plus building councils in every city asap.

    I like the science change in a lot of respects, but at the same time it's removed my feeling my build order is fluid. Now my build order is always councils without fail, then something else.

    Science is now so static, that every bit of it as soon as possible makes a world of difference.

    And... I like the change. So, I don't really know. Sorry these thoughts aren't a bit more coherent.

    I can tell you, I'm going to play a game tonight and have 0 intention of choosing anything other than progress no matter what the variables are.
     
  3. Myrrdin_Emrys

    Myrrdin_Emrys Warlord

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    and for me there is a problem here. If players ( for now it's maybe just 1 i would like to have more feedbaacks) take something whatever situation there are, there is no more choice !

    Maybe we just have to rebalance the progress Tree with the new science system.
    The opener is still really strong but the policy which give you +3 science per city connection is about to quadruple your city science outpout early on, so its quite amazing too !
     
  4. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    dont forget the progress policy that gives 3 science per connection, with just your cap and another city it's already 6 science which is likely to more than double your science and it only require 3 policies

    also the 2 science 2 faith pantheon is also a must have

    progress sure is OP, even looking at AI's you can see those with progress has way more techs
     
  5. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    I think the current new sources of science need a little adjusting. Take shrine for example: 20% of faith translates into a single point of science, which means that you have to have at least 5 fath in a city to feel the effect of that. 5 faith per city is something that you can only achieve with certain religious beliefs & pantheons/UBs/wonders etc, while most of the timeyour cities will sit at 3 faith from shrines themselves along with temples. Therefore, I think the conversion ratio could be lifted up to 33%. Faith isn't a yield that inflates much, anyway.
     
  6. hokath

    hokath King

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    Yes Progress needs the opener scaling tuned in the early game.

    Tradition should perhaps see the Astrologer come as one of the first two policies, and the Court Chapel be moved down. I choose the Chapel because it provides +2 faith, which is helping Tradition get pantheon/religion significantly earlier now pantheon faith yields are (correctly imo) being tuned down. If you lift the shrine ratio to 33%, then when you get the Chapel it will come with a nice +1 science (w/o other sources of faith).
     
  7. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I don't think you have to have 5 faith to benefit from the science conversion on the shrine. If you have, say, 4 faith I think you'll get 0.8 science/turn. I don't think it has to be a whole number.
     
  8. supracseduch

    supracseduch Warlord

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    My reasoning above holds: That those cities that do generate a lot of faith are in all likelihood cities with religious beliefs (whether founded or adopted). Cities with a religion are already at an advantage over cities without one. Just imagine how much science a city worshiping the Goddess of Beauty can generate. Your suggestion would raise it to 1 science per wonder. Faith does inflate a lot for religious civs and for some types of pantheons and follower buildings. On the other hand, some pantheons don't generate constant faith yields but instead rely on instant yields, making them less useful for generating science. And the religious buildings are really good at inflating faith yields, compared to other follower belief types.

    So not only would religious cities be at an even greater advantage than irreligious cities; religious cities with constant faith generating beliefs are even more so, complicating the balance between beliefs. Honestly, the ones that should be receiving a science boost, if anything, would have to be the religionless cities, starting in the Renaissance era (Heliocentricism, evolution, Big Bang theory, stem cell research, etc. are scientific ideas far less likely to be held back in a non-religious city).
     
  9. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    100% agree. I'd also like to point out that there is no science bonus for pantheons that give global yields
     
  10. HG_CassiusA

    HG_CassiusA Hallowed are the Ori

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    I have very mixed feelings on the 3/1 version of CBP.

    I really like the removal of science as a per population yield. Restricting science generation to specialists, dedicated buildings/improvements, and a few other things is actually very realistic. Historically the development of agriculture and more efficient food production allowed a portion of a society's population to do things other than food production. Thus, the birth of science.

    But gold and culture? I don't like those changes much at all. From a realism perspective, every one of your citizens participates in your economy and culture and should thus generate at least a small amount of it, even if you can still have dedicated artists or merchants.
     
  11. Wario Mario

    Wario Mario Warlord

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    I disagree.

    Not every individual participates in economy or the culture, and those that do can potentially take away more than they add. If lots of people = rich, then why aren't India and China super super rich?

    Gold inflation was absurd the way it was.
     
  12. notque

    notque Artificially Intelligent

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  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    The game doesn't need to be historically acurate. The theme is just this, something that makes you forget you are playing with numbers.

    We keep asking for more sources of science, when we should be asking for backwards civilizations to be competitive. I wouldn't mind being 10 techs behind if my other advantages make up for it.

    That being said, founding a religion usually means that you are not building science buildings as soon as possible, so maybe religious civs would fall behind in bonus absence. Not receiving science for their faith production is going to be pain enough.
     
  14. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    There are huge problems with the new science system.

    The imbalance between progress and traddition is only one.

    Now that there is generally much less science, all sources that give extra science need to be adressed: Policies, believes, Unique abilities....

    For example, the celtic pantheon that gives science per pop is huge, there is a belief that gives science per followers in foreign cities, there is Portugals UA... all these are easily able to provide more than half of a civs science output alone, and those are just those that I can think of at the top of my head.
     
  15. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Warlord

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    The fact that science is so restrictively linked to buildings now is a real bummer to be honest. It really messes with the feeling of independence I have when I usually go through the tech tree. I understand restricting the science bonus through population as some civs can get crazy pop over others depending on circumstances, but at the same time, I think flat-out removing it was a bad call, because it harms the momentum of civs not going after a specific tech. I believe the population to science bonus should return, only with a hard nerf. Maybe 1 science per 3 citizens instead of 1 to 1.

    Edit: To be fair, there is suppose to be a contrast now with science civs and culture civs, but I still stand by my point.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It's really not, though. You've got science in all three ancient era policy branches (and then varying degrees of science on the rest of the branches), science on tile plots/improvements, science from religious perks, science from trade routes, science from minor civ alliances, science from minor civ quests, science from unique abilities...

    Those other sources matter way more now than they used to, due to the absence of citizen-based science and limited science from buildings in the first half of the game.

    G
     
  17. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Warlord

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    I suppose you're right (you did create the change after all, I'm certain you know what you're talking about). Maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions. I'll just have to play more to really understand these changes I suppose.
     
  18. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    I think the change is brilliant. Sure some of the numbers may need a tweek here or there, but there is little reason only science should get a boost from pop.

    You may think it will just be "beeline writing for libraries" every game, but in practice it will likely be harder than that, especially if you neglect techs that boost gold income.
     
  19. supracseduch

    supracseduch Warlord

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    The only science providing improvements are Academies and UI's. The former requires science specialists, hence Libraries (unless you go Tradition). City-State quests cannot be reliably accomplished in the Ancient era when AI advantages are most apparent, and maintaining friendships requires Writing, now the most important tech of the Classical era. The unique traits that provide science matter much more now, but it's not like Babylon or Korea were in need of a buff.

    Social Policies, Councils, and Libraries are the only reliable sources of early science. These are things you can't afford to delay because tech progression is still too important to ignore. The recent changes for Wonder requirements is a step towards reducing its overall importance, but it's still a necessity to stay competitive. It's going to be difficult to further reduce its importance without some more radical changes.

    What are you talking about? It's impossible to get to Writing without researching Trade. If you want even more gold just go ahead and research Pottery to get Caravans and Settlers (for city connections from The Wheel, a prerequisite for Writing). It can't be that big of a delay to research this column-1 tech. But really, gold isn't a problem that early.
     
  20. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I really dislike the changes and hope for a CoreDefines/CommunityOptions way to go back to Pre-beta pre-council system.

    Science focused UAs are now overpowered and can easily double or more your science output because of how scarce science is, your starting location is overly important (starting next to Whales = 1/3rd of science more for a long period of time, getting Amber + Science monopoly grants you half of your science just for being lucky), city growth is almost unimportant.

    Policies granting Science are too important now, buildings providing science must be built asap (there's no longer any freedom of technological choice - you need Council/Granary asap, can't delay it like you easily could have the Library with some decent growth pre-patch. And even if you wanted to rush Library there was less buildings to try and rush - now you need the Council first and since it's all based on time, you need Writing too - so you must get those techs fast or you fall behind), civs with +Science UI/UA/early UB like Maya, Arabia, Babylon etc are stronger than they were and it's not like any of them needed any buffs.
     

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