Space Empires

Ok, Im probably going to retry later. Thanks for replying :) . However I tried to do that earlier, but I called it Space Terrain instead of Space. I did what I normally do to use alternative terrains.
 
This looks great. I had been putting some thought lately into the rules and mechanics of a space-based game myself - trying to reconcile MoO and AC to some extent.

I wonder if you've given any thought to planets that took up 4 squares? I have myself but found the graphics impossible to work out.
 
Actually, I have put a lot of thought into that lately, and I think that I have a working solution. Obviously, random map generation wouldn't work for it. But basically, the traditional four-square planet would consist of 1-3 different terrain types from the desert, grass, plain, and tundra types (noting that tundra only works with itself or grass). That gives us 161 (I think) different possible planets, not including river, forest, jungle, and marsh effects, and landmark adds even more.

Using a shadow effect for the north pole and just barely peeking the south pole past the center of the transition tile graphic, we can then use hills and mountains for rocky and gas planets, respectively. Thus, we could have a 1-, two 2-, and a 4-square for each type. And with forest and jungle (assuming I can force the map to use them) there ends up being 12 different rocky planets and 16 gas planets, again ignoring landmark terrain. Use volcanoes for suns, and you get either 4 or 8 different suns (do volcanoes have a snowy equivalent?), plus you can animate the occasional solar flare.

I would use a large moon for bonus grassland, and potentially use tnt for small moons or other flavor effects. Rivers would add clouds to indicate presence of significant water; maybe floodplains for large bodies of water. For the other planets, maybe use mtnRivers to add an icy moon (Europa-type) to the orbit. You might even be able to use a single hill to represent a particularly large moon for a normal planet in place of normal terrain.

I'm still figuring out the implementation of the forest, jungle, and marsh overlays. The curvature is what makes it so difficult. Maybe rocky space debris around the planet? A nebula of gas for the marsh? Or should it be iconic, more like a resource? It's the major problem I havent figured out.

I have the basic concept, but due to my father passing away this spring and taking my professional exams at the end of the month, I haven't yet started creating any terrain models. I hope to have a sample of what I'm talking about early next year. Someone posted a screen shot of what I was talking about way upthread (in fact, what started my contemplation), though I think it is larger than what I was planning for the major planets (about the right size for the four-square rocky and gas planets, though).

<edit>
Looks like the screenshot is gone now. Though reading back through, I may have some use for the marsh such as a small but highly radioactive sun. Could give me quite a few different looks, especially if I also use jungle the same way. And then volcanoes could be used for something else if need be, like a dangerous asteroid belt. Hmmm.... I like using forest as rocky debris field orbiting the planet (won't work for a desert planet, but hey, it's not perfect.

By the way, the diameter of my major planets will be somewhat larger than the larger axis of a tile diamond, depending on how much shadow I use. The darkened crescent will be at the top to give an illusion of looking down like the rest of civ does, rather than an ecliptic view like most space pictures. This is to maximize the size of the planets while still allowing for small rocky and gas planets.

Thanks Vadus for creating this thread. I will link to it when I start my own thread. After all, it's because of you that I even started to think about it.
 
Interesting modpack
 
Still won't work. Also, I can't have my map have the same name as the folder, my computer won't let me. How can I get this to work? I tried everything. Everybody else can do it, but I can't. Whats the secret to it?
 
You could have planets be a thing like the mountain or forest or hill or jungle or marsh--you know an object that goes over the regular grassland terrain, in those separate files in Art/Terrain. It could be really big and exceed the boundaries of the square. Then you could have terrain in the other squares. For example, you could have each mountain be one of these huge 9 tile objects (3 squares by 3 squares), except round,and put one on the map in the center of where you want a planet to be, then put whatever other terrain you like around it in the surrounding squares. Or maybe if that didn't work you could do it with a terrain building, like a fortress.
 
@Morfos : thats really strange. Do you have another terrain-sets to check if this is a general problem ?

To multi-tiled planets :
Here are my thoughts of such a feature, but there will be the problem, that there could be only one type of sized planets. So if there are 4 tiled planets, you couldn't have 1 or 9 tiled ones, because there are "corners" used by one 4 and 9 tiled land areas. For Civ-terrain this doesn't madder, but if you think of good looking round planets, the corner looks only good with one planet size ...
You could only have one-tiled planets in a multi-tiled system with overlay-graphics, like forests or marsh.
So, to make 4 or 9 tiled planets means to create a complete new Space Terrain, and it would be cool, if someone could made this, but I have to say, I'm too lazy and waiting for Civ4, which will make real StarGames possible by changing most of the InGame rules (you know, in Civ4 you will be able to change almost everything, because the GameRules will be "outsourced" to python classes ;) )
 
Vadus is correct. Assuming you create space terrain graphics, you are restricted to either 1-tile or 4-tile planets for planets using the basic terrain types (grass, desert, tundra, and plain) - although I don't think it is possible to create 9-tile planets that still look like spheres. The reason as stated above is that the tiles in the graphics files (let's call them sub-tiles for clarity) will require four sub-tiles with 60 and 120 degree arcs for the 1-tile planet graphic (N,S,E,W) and nine sub-tiles of varying degrees <plus the center sub-tile> for the 4-tile planet (N,S,E,W,NE,NW,SE,SW,center). Try to use the (N,S,E,W) sub-tiles in the 4-tile set to create a 1-tile planet, and the resulting graphic looks like a TiE fighter on its side.

Pros and cons for the two systems:

1-tile: simple to create, few restrictions on placement, but less variety in graphics and the AI doesn't like using single tile islands, so planets or other stellar objects such as asteroids must be placed contiguous to each other.

4-tile: greater variety of graphics and planet types, larger planets, but much more complicated in scope and has many restrictions on placement of tiles; AI plays nicely with this set-up.

Note that proper use of the overlays can provide additional variety and violate the basic 1vs4 rule of the system being used. Mountains and hills can be used to make 1, 2, or 4 tile planets under either system for example. Another consideration is that tundra only works with itself or grass, so one might decide to make tundra a 1-tile ice planet in the otherwise 4-tile planet system.

I'm planning on making a 4-tile system next year - my wife will hopefully be going to Canada for nine months to do her doctoral research. Vadus, I noticed that some of your graphics could be edited to add some variety while not changing the overall "look and feel" of your 1-tile system (for example, every sun looks identical, but some subtle red/blue-shifting and detailing could add variety to the board). Is it all right if I practice my graphics skills on your space set? You of course would get full credit.
 
Here's a quick and crude terrain mod showing a nine tile planet. Carelessly cut and pasted it in about ten minutes with Gimp. Marsh, Jungle, Forest, and Pine Forest are used for the four corners. Note, this gives the appearance of a 9 tile planet by using 4 oversized squares, and that it must be created by hand, not randomly generated. The other 5 tiles can be filled in to be whatever you like. I think the light blue stuff is because I used the Forest sheet from original Civ3, not Conquests. Anyway, its just a demonstration, not a playable mod. In fact, only look at it in the editor.
 

Attachments

  • multitile.zip
    multitile.zip
    46 KB · Views: 111
  • uglyplanet.JPG
    uglyplanet.JPG
    68.6 KB · Views: 225
Ah, I see. Clever.

I would have a lot of reservations about that particular system. Then again, I have reservations about the other systems. The 9-tile system really only adds one more tile to the planet when it comes to variety, since the 4 corners would always be the same (check that, forest can overlay multiple terrain types, so there could be some variety in that corner), and impossible to settle, to boot (because the vegetation overlay would disappear). It also makes the planets larger - thus reducing the numer of star systems that can be used (which is also a factor with the 4-tile system). Finally, it means that the overlays can't be used for anything else. But, it still is a viable system, and I hadn't thought of using the vegetation to block out the bows of the planet (though you might have to make the planet a bit smaller in the final product so that it isn't clipped). BTW, this post is critique, not a criticism.
 
Well, overlays work, as we see. But then it's also possible with underlay-terrain.
@Dangerboy
I'm planning on making a 4-tile system next year - my wife will hopefully be going to Canada for nine months to do her doctoral research. Vadus, I noticed that some of your graphics could be edited to add some variety while not changing the overall "look and feel" of your 1-tile system (for example, every sun looks identical, but some subtle red/blue-shifting and detailing could add variety to the board). Is it all right if I practice my graphics skills on your space set? You of course would get full credit.
I hope, your're not in the 7th year of your marriage :D
But your suggestion is great, and as I wrote in the first post, this mod/graphic-set is free to alter. While playing with the one-tiled system, I always missed a better AI behavior, and this could be possible with multi-tiled systems. :)
Also a mixture of one and multi-tiled systems (e.g. big planets, with one-tiles moons) would look great !
 
Nope, 3 days from our 2.5 year anniversary ;) It's not as bad as it may sound; she'll only be about a three hour drive (plus the time spent crossing the border), since I live near Detroit.

I've already figured out how to do big planets with moons. Have a four tile planet of whatever terrain, then directly to the E or W use a single tile rocky planet (which uses the hill graphics file) - you could also go N or S or keep a tile of separation, but it won't work if placed on the diagonals. Also, resources can be used for smaller moons (ones not large enough to sustain a large population) either on 'coastal' or terrestrial terrain.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of using tundra for single tile ice moons - it would allow the use of the hillsforest and mountainsforest terrain files for greater variety on the rocky and gas planets (since forest -asteroid fields- can be placed on tundra) without screwing up the base terrain under the planets. Plus it would make it graohically feasible to allow bases in asteroid fields - it makes sense for asteroids to be terraformed into a small icy ball capable of supporting small mining operations.
 
Vadus,

Just tried that Star Trek mod, and it uses these graphics. I've got to say that the planets are really pretty, and I'm impressed with all the star types. I have no idea how you did that. Every time I click I get a different star or planet, even though I'm placing the same kind of tile. I think it has something to do with the border interaction, but I can't figure it out. Care to enlighten me? I'd really like to be able to predict what kind of planet/star I'll get so I have more control over the map.

Two more things.
1) Someone in the Star Trek thread mentioned that the space tile looks exactly the same as the fog of war so it's hard to see where you've explored and where you haven't. My suggestion would be to change the space/deep space tiles to have little pinpoints of light in them like faraway stars. That way, explored squares will have dimmed lights (stars) and some small fuzzy lighted shapes (distant galaxies), and the unexplored regions would be just black. I think this would also add to the realism. In the infinity of space, chances are any line of sight will eventually intersect with a radiating body.

2) The second issue also has to do with the colour black. The "solar system" tile looks exactly the same as a space tile (solid black). I understand this is a transition zone for the land to sea, but it is annoying when I can't tell if my ships can move into a square or not. If my suggestion above was implemented, that would take away the confusion, but it would look weird for deep space to be filled with distant stars while the are around systems was just pitch black. I think the current graphic for "asteroid" could replace the current "solar system". This could represent the debris, dust, and gases that are present in higher concentrations in solar systems. Then a new graphic could be made for the current "asteroid" tile, perhaps one with larger particles of matter. Alternatively, you could keep the current "asteroid", and change the "solar system" to something else (maybe a haze of coloured gas or something), just so we can see that "ships can't go here".

That's all I have to say. Sorry if I was a little long-winded or if that came out sounding too critical. Rest assured that I really appreciate all the hard work that went into this. I know I could never do anything like it. :goodjob:
 
Take a close look in the graphics files, they should help you figure out what you'll get. Some things are random chance, just like you never know if the single tile grass island is going to be big or small, or what forest tile will be chosen.

I plan on addressing the too-black space tiles early next year, maybe even the week before Christmas (wife going to Florida with her family). I'm inclined towards the haze method for solar syatem. Vadus's first asteroids were larger, but just didn't look right. They are perfect as they are now, and a solar system would look more hazy than deep space. Greying the black somewhat along with specks of subtle hues.
 
@LeeT911

Yes, the "fog of war" isn't very conspicuous, and I didn't change it's graphic. So there is only the grey-overlay upon the Space. So, maybe the "fog of war" shouldn't be to transparent.
And I don't know, if there is a cool way to have a better difference between SolarSystem and DeepSpace. A hazy SolarSystem-tile would look strange, I think, and an 'astorided' SolarSystem would be much realistic... Only a higher stardensity for SolarSysem-tiles could be possible...
But, I hope you will not resent, that I don't want to change the current Version until DangerBoy succeeds a better planet-system. Maybe the space could get a different look with bigger planets, or some other unexpected things will appear..
But for a fast solution for you I have an old asteroid terrain, wich can be used for SolarSystem ;)
just rename the added file to wCSO.pcx and copy it into your SpaceScenario - Terrain folder
(maybe you want to save your current wCSO.pcx by renaming it )

The problem, that you have a random placement of planets is strange. Maybe it's a mixture of normal und landmark-terrain ? (wich could be appear, if the "ground" (the space around the stars) is mixed with landmarked space

@Dangerboy : I'm very anxious to see your first multi-tiled planet :)

@Corey : thanks ! :D
 

Attachments

Vadus, would you like me to whip up a "proof of concept"? Basically, it wouldn't have any detail, just simple colors, but would show the sizes and how the major parts fit together. I could post it sometime midmonth December (too much holiday stuff to do before then).
 
Interesting development, Vadus. The laptop battery decided to become dead weight on Thursday. Makes for a great terminal, but not so good for when the wife goes out to do her research (btw, they are actively reviewing her grant proposal right now <crossing fingers>), so we got a new laptop for her. So in the short term, I will be setting up the new computer and won't get to the proof of concept until next week. In the long term, she uses the new laptop as her primary computer - which means after two years, I finally get primary use of the main computer! Which means I am much more likely to be able to work on a certain graphics project in the upcoming months... :beer:
 
Back
Top Bottom