Space Warping? Eh?

[warpus]

But it doesn't kill you (at least if it actually worked it wouldn't). The information that makes you is never duplicated or even changed it just makes a transition from one series of particles to another. And really, the notion of different identical particles makes little sense.

Sure it kills you.

The way a teleporter would work is this: Your body is scanned and the information regarding every single particle is saved. This information is sent elsewhere, where you are re-constructed from scratch. The original is then destroyed - aka killed.

Of course, if you're talking about wormholes/stargates and such, that's an entirely different proposition, but the teleporters scientists are currently working on don't really teleport - they simply make a copy and destroy the original.

 

[punkbass2000]

Which brings us back to El_Mac's question.

 

[warpus]

Which brings us back to El_Mac's question.

What makes you 'you' ?

Why does it matter? If somebody kills me - then puts together a perfect copy of me, it doesn't change the fact that I am dead.

 

[El_Machinae]

How do you know you're dead, and not just moved.

Whenever I take a step, I fundamentally change the information stored within every single atom of my body. I exchange atoms (and electrons) with my environment at a rapid rate.

So if each atom is transferred to another location, one at a time, with 'mostly' the same information ... isn't the body then 'there'?

 

[punkbass2000]

What makes you 'you' ?

Why does it matter? If somebody kills me - then puts together a perfect copy of me, it doesn't change the fact that I am dead.

No, it doesn't change that fact. Your conclusion follows from your premise. However, if you don't know who you are, then you have no method to determine whether or not you have been killed.

 

[Sidhe]

What the scientist really needs to do is come up with a way to test the theory. I'm ALL for FTL capabilities, and I honestly wouldn't mind funding certain experiments.

Has anyone heard of Heim Theory. It is a really great idea, it's a pity it invokes a fifth and sixth dimension which are divide into sub dimensions. Otherwise it would have been great.

Essentially Heim came up with it in the 50's and it created quite a stir, his colleagues heralded him as a genius, although I suspect it was because many couldn't understand the math, it's a bit like string theory in that regard. Werner von Braun reputedly(could be a myth) sent a letter to Heim asking if the apollo program was worth it after reading about his theory.

Essentially it involves equating Gravity with electrons, I.e a sort of unification theory. you then use electromagnetism to create anti gravitational photons and gravitational photons, with these you bend space and make the distance between two points smaller, New Scientist ran an article on it; don't get your hopes up though as with most theories invoking extra dimensions, the world of science took a bit of a dim view. Two scientists submitted the paper to NASA about six moths ago, since then the story has dissapeared without trace. However it sounds simillar to the OP, simillar enough that I would imagine this is it's origin.

The ultimate extension to bending space is to place the space craft outside of normal space into Hilbert space, a sort of hyperspace and then defy the laws governing travel up to the speed of light or essentially FTL travel.

To me it sounds too good to be true, but hey there are people testing it independantly, as with many off the wall theories. It would be nice if it was true, but me being a bit of a skeptic thinks it may be a dream. I really am hoping to be proved wrong though

I used to have a copy of the paper, according to the guy I work with it was interesting and the maths was essentially faultless, but he hates extra dimensions so he gave it little more acknowledgement than mere interest value.

 

[warpus]

How do you know you're dead, and not just moved.

Whenever I take a step, I fundamentally change the information stored within every single atom of my body. I exchange atoms (and electrons) with my environment at a rapid rate.

So if each atom is transferred to another location, one at a time, with 'mostly' the same information ... isn't the body then 'there'?

Yeah, but when you walk you have a continuous stream of consciousness.

If somebody shoots me in the head - then reconstructs me 5 years later, it's not like I'm going to wake up in the new body - it's going to be a perfect copy of me, and it'll think that it's me - but I'll be long dead.

If you transfer each atom, one at a time, you'll first have to rip the person apart into individual atoms - killing him (or her). Shoot me in the head, rip me apart into individual atoms, stab me in the heart - it doesn't matter - all 3 will kill me.

No, it doesn't change that fact. Your conclusion follows from your premise. However, if you don't know who you are, then you have no method to determine whether or not you have been killed.

Huh? I know who I am - but if I'm killed, I'll have no way of questioning the nature of my existence - I'll be dead.

 

[punkbass2000]

Yeah, but when you walk you have a continuous stream of consciousness.

And what causes this stream to be?

Huh? I know who I am

OK. Who are you?

 

[warpus]

The nature of consciousness is outside the scope of this conversation and doesn't change the fact that walking doesn't kill you, but a gunshot to the head likely would. A perfect reconstruction of your self will not cause you to magically wake up in the new body, negating your death.

 

[Sidhe]

erm actually I was wondering a while back what warping your mind into unfathomable philosophies has to do with warping space-time. Man I really got the wrong end of the stick here

 

[Atropos]

Counterexample: You are perfectly copied WITHOUT being destroyed. Which is you? The original one, of course. If the original body is destroyed later, you die. If it's destroyed immediately, you die. It's no different from being cloned.

 

[betazed]

Counterexample: You are perfectly copied WITHOUT being destroyed.

Physics does not allow that. You cannot perfectly copy something without destroying it also.

The laws of physics have a really neat way of not getting you into fallacies and conundrums that philosophers so like to talk about.

 

[Sidhe]

In case anyones interested in reality, the suposed teleportaion of atoms from one point to another, left some very odd results and some very bemused scientists, they claimed it as a success, but really it was positively tenuous. That said there is no philosophical issue if the two twins exist they are identicle, from that point on though they are not as each has a different potential perspective as it progresses through time, thus you have effectively created a clone, nothing more nothing less. To kill one or the other is murder, you would hope this is not a fly type Simpsons experiment but a hamock type simpsons experiment. Man I really am not getting this at all, but hey whatever

Betazed has a point too, unfortuanately it is impossible to talk about teleportation of anything in entirity without violating several more physics laws, at least from a macro to micro perspective, but hey since we're talking heisenberg compensators from Star Trek, let's go with the breaking of physics laws flow.

 

[Tycoon101]

Blast! I can't find the article online.
I dislike the idea of teleportation due to the destruction of the previous body, a total copy of a human does NOT have a sure chance of maintaining the same mind as the original host.

THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING!

 

[warpus]

Physics does not allow that. You cannot perfectly copy something without destroying it also.

The laws of physics have a really neat way of not getting you into fallacies and conundrums that philosophers so like to talk about.

You can though, using quantum entanglement. That's how physicists were able to "teleport" an electron, or whatever particle they "teleported". No need for Heisenberg compensators.

 

[Sidhe]

Are you talking about quantum entanglement here, if you are the actual teleportation as we would understand it(a to b with the original partical non existent) it's not apt, if your talking about exchange of information in entanglement, then maybe, but most people have no real idea about "spooky interaction at a distance" and start going off on tangents that bear no relation to real physics interpretation.

If your talking about true teleportation then your in Heisenberg country. The physicists did it with a hydrogen atom, and their results were more contraversial than the Berlin wall. They really had to stretch the credulity of there own theories to even explain the results, which had some fantabulous conclusions such as particles travelling back in time to meet themselves and all sorts of wierd and wonderful nonsense.

Anyway, if you can break the fundemental laws of physics and teleport an actual particle, your up for a nobel prize. Good luck with that

EDIT: Oh sorry just saw your post, sorry warpus but this is transfer of information, and can be explained not as actual teleportation but as an extension of Bell's theorem, you'd need to look into the theory behind entanglement, but it is not as it seems most likely, there could well be no transfer of information, but simply a lack of understanding of the mechanism involved in interpretation of results, many physisists are unhappy with the FTL transfer of information, being a semi laymen I too am unhappy with violating fundemental laws of physics such as FTL information transfer, after all how do you know that a when viewed creates b is not just a and b as they were all along, but with a misinterpritation of the probabilities.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/BellsTheorem/BellsTheorem.html

This may help but you may need to read further to understand it.

 

[El_Machinae]

If you transfer each atom, one at a time, you'll first have to rip the person apart into individual atoms - killing him (or her).

You're constantly exchanging atoms now. And since with the teleportation process, the atoms would exchange instantly, things would be just fine. There is no discerable difference between what would happen with the teleporter and what happens if you just walk over there (except one is faster than the other)

 

[warpus]

You're constantly exchanging atoms now. And since with the teleportation process, the atoms would exchange instantly, things would be just fine. There is no discerable difference between what would happen with the teleporter and what happens if you just walk over there (except one is faster than the other)

Yes, if you could send the entire human instantly there would be no need to break him/her down to individual atoms. However, as soon as you do that - you're dead.

You're talking about a stargate/wormhole type of teleporter where a person would step into some sort of a device and instantly walk out on the other end. The type of teleporter I'm talking about is the one scientists have been working on. Instead of actual particles you send information - and then use it to reconstruct the person on the other end.

As for quantum entanglement - my understanding was that the technique was used to make a perfect copy of a particle without breaking Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

 

[Sidhe]

El machinae is right about actual teleportation it's anon starter from actual interpritation of physics laws,from a top down perspective(macro to micro to nano) it simply does not fit with the laws of nature(physics)

As for your understanding of entanglement, thus information transfer your not really comprehending the participant effect in an observation and thus anything your thinking is wrong.

Try the link, it'll make it make it clear, but you will need some understanding of the physics involved.

 

[punkbass2000]

The nature of consciousness is outside the scope of this conversation and doesn't change the fact that walking doesn't kill you, but a gunshot to the head likely would.

You can call anything a fact if you want to But sure, we don't have to discuss it and I'm happy enough to leave it alone.