Speakeasies

[Tarquelne]

Barring heroes from it defeats the reason it was originally suggested. Non-CoE heroes = reloading until they are. That's what we're trying to eliminate.

And making it so they just can't get it would eliminate the "need" to reload.

The entitlement comment was directed toward the assumption that Heroes *should* always be CoE-units.

Are you sure you aren't trying to eliminate "Heroes sometimes aren't CoE followers."? (BTW: Do people think the FfH2 team made it random because they bought stock in hard drive manufactures?)

Re: Banning due to playbalance - That was speculative. Someone might add a Hero that'd be OP if made a follower.

 

[Rystic]

And making it so they just can't get it would eliminate the "need" to reload.

That'd be a huge nerf to CoE. It's hard enough to mount an assault of HN recon units. Considering CoE has no strong priests, the closest thing we have are our recon heroes.

The entitlement comment was directed toward the assumption that Heroes *should* always be CoE-units.

Alkazan and Rathas should. And not just them. Assassin units should have a higher chance of having CoE because they're the patron worshipers.

Are you sure you aren't trying to eliminate "Heroes sometimes aren't CoE followers."?

Of course that's what we want to eliminate. We want to give our recon heroes HN. Especially someone like Rathas Denmora and his fantastic Netherblade.

Re: Banning due to playbalance - That was speculative. Someone might add a Hero that'd be OP if made a follower.

Nerfing Council of Esus is like nerfing a nerf weapon.

You understand only recon heroes can use Mask, right? Giving other heroes CoE is mostly pointless.

 

[Valkrionn]

Tarq never said that they would ban any CURRENTLY EXISTING heroes, but that the option should exist in case some other civ comes along with a hero overpowered enough to warrant it.

 

[Iceciro]

I'll be honest, without the opportunity to give my heroes Mask I'd never go CoE. Without a masked Alzakan, FoL is better for Svalts, and even with a masked Rathus in play hordes of Order Priests backed up by the Altar and coming in with Spirit Guide Order is a better choice for the Sidar.

No idea what works with the Austrin. But i'd imagine even OO is better for them than CoE.

 

[Rystic]

Tarq never said that they would ban any CURRENTLY EXISTING heroes, but that the option should exist in case some other civ comes along with a hero overpowered enough to warrant it.

Then it's not a problem with the mechanics, it's a problem with the hero.

Also, we're talking about Hidden Nationality like it's the tipping point between overpowered and balanced. What unit, other than assassin-heroes, would be significantly stronger with Hidden Nationality?

 

[odalrick]

Also, we're talking about Hidden Nationality like it's the tipping point between overpowered and balanced. What unit, other than assassin-heroes, would be significantly stronger with Hidden Nationality?

With easy access to both states, like Mask allows, all of them.

Well, except those that are worthless anyway.

The problem is that the computer isn't able to understand covert wars. A human can investigate the hidden units and, if need be, declare an actual war against the likely suspect. An AI will just sit there and allow units to heal in their city even as their units die to the hidden assault.

 

[Rystic]

With easy access to both states, like Mask allows, all of them.

Well, except those that are worthless anyway.

Most recon heroes aren't that strong. Also, you can't Mask and Declare Nationality on the same turn. There's an opening to attack, for human players and the computer.

The problem is that the computer isn't able to understand covert wars. A human can investigate the hidden units and, if need be, declare an actual war against the likely suspect. An AI will just sit there and allow units to heal in their city even as their units die to the hidden assault.

You can do this anyway with Shadows.

 

[odalrick]

Alkazan the assassin is certainly that strong. The only other recon hero is Rathus, I think, and his main use is producing great people anyway.

That's 50% of all recon heroes and the other half are support units. I suppose strictly speaking 50% is not most, but it's a fair chunk.

Anyway, the question wasn't about recon heroes, it was about all units.

You can do this anyway with Shadows.

So, you're saying: "Remove Shadows."?

It is one thing to have this as an ability for a high tech, national unit; though it's not good. It's quite another to have it as a basic ability for standard units.

(I think I've gotten a bit sidetracked. I was just responding to the idea that Mask wouldn't be bad to have as a general ability.)

 

[Rystic]

Alkazan the assassin is certainly that strong. The only other recon hero is Rathus, I think, and his main use is producing great people anyway.

Producing Great People with Rathus? What?

Is this something in Fall Further?

That's 50% of all recon heroes and the other half are support units. I suppose strictly speaking 50% is not most, but it's a fair chunk.

What does this mean?

Anyway, the question wasn't about recon heroes, it was about all units.

All recon units. Scouts, Hunters, Rangers, Assassins, and Beastmasters (I believe).

So, you're saying: "Remove Shadows."?

... How do you figure I said that? That's the opposite of the point I was making. People were complaining that you can use HN Esus heroes to attack enemy cities, then declare and heal inside. You can do this with all Esus recon units. I mentioned Shadow because it's a powerful unit, but it could've been anything, really.

It is one thing to have this as an ability for a high tech, national unit; though it's not good. It's quite another to have it as a basic ability for standard units.

But... It's already a basic ability for standard recon units.

I'm so confused by this post.

 

[Rystic]

(I think I've gotten a bit sidetracked. I was just responding to the idea that Mask wouldn't be bad to have as a general ability.)

Ah, I understand now. I don't support Mask as a general ability. Only recon.

 

[odalrick]

Producing Great People with Rathus? What?

I think that's his name. Sidar hero, comes with a Netherblade, mostly useful for his ability to get to level 6 in 26 turns, and give units a free promotion when produced. Combine with a Life III caster for a guaranteed great person every 34 turns.

Other than that he isn't noticeably more useful than Ghosts.

What unit, other than assassin-heroes, would be significantly stronger with Hidden Nationality?

This was the question I responded to. Pretty much all units would be significantly stronger with Mask. Workers and settlers are an exception. Recon are sufficiently weak for them not to be overpowered with Mask, provided you don't abuse the AI.

 

[Iceciro]

This was the question I responded to. Pretty much all units would be significantly stronger with Mask. Workers and settlers are an exception. Recon are sufficiently weak for them not to be overpowered with Mask, provided you don't abuse the AI.

This is why only Recon units should be able to buy into Esus. Plus, Mask only works for Recon units anyways.... so it doesn't matter if your Phalanx follows Esus, it still wont hide.

 

[Hawkwood]

I have an idea about the implementation of espionage: Don't use the normal missions, but keep the passive effects (viewing cities and research) and adding some buyable promotions that cost espionage (preferably they should only last for a limited time) adding abilities like Invisibility (removed with combat), Hidden Nationality and Can explore rival territory.

 

[Iceciro]

I have an idea about the implementation of espionage: Don't use the normal missions, but keep the passive effects (viewing cities and research) and adding some buyable promotions that cost espionage (preferably they should only last for a limited time) adding abilities like Invisibility (removed with combat), Hidden Nationality and Can explore rival territory.

If we can have Espionage expendable for promotions, that would be pretty awesome. I'd probably also add an ability for Espionage + Ton of Gold to be able to bribe enemy units (yay civ2!)

 

[Rystic]

Does Rathas do this in Fall Further? I've never really done a FF Sidar game.

 

[MrUnderhill]

If a hero starts causing problems when they get Hidden Nationality, you could just exclude the promotion for that unit in the XML. No need to use the ban-hammer when a scalpel will do.

 

[WarKirby]

If there are any thoughts about adding CoE priests, and as long as we're pludering Oblivion, I'd like to suggest "Listener" as a name for a priest, of sorts.

 

[MrUnderhill]

If there are any thoughts about adding CoE priests, and as long as we're pludering Oblivion, I'd like to suggest "Listener" as a name for a priest, of sorts.

"Silencer" would be a cool name as well. However, I wonder if they couldn't be implemented as promotions instead of units. You could use potions to emulate Cure Disease and Heal (you'd have to pay for them, of course, to go along with the CoE's theme), and it would still keep the basic concept of a "hidden religion".

 

[Valkrionn]

I like the promotion method, myself.

 

[Iceciro]

MrUnderhill's buy miracles idea is great, and I could implement that really quickly and lazily. Sounds like I may have another idea to steal >_>