[C3C] Specialists Choice for Military Focus in Late Game

[vorlon_mi]

A lot of good discussion in https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/specialist-citizens.674344/ about specialists, but rather than resurrect that thread from last year, I wanted to ask a newer, related question.

Most of the time, I play for Space Victory, so any specialist citizens become scientists to speed up my research for techs to build the ship.

This game, I'm playing as Carthage on a Large Continents map, going for Domination. I conquered my land mass with Cavalry in the Industrial Era, having just built ToE. I've invaded the other land mass, where Lincoln is the big power and 2 others (Maya, Russia) have smaller portions of land. I've just crossed into the Modern Era, am building tanks for a big push into America, and have slowed my research pace. Yes, I could have invaded earlier but I've been trying to honor treaties and keep my trade rep intact.

I'm trying an alternate use of specialists:
- In newly conquered / pacified cities, I use Civil Engineers (hard hats) when building key buildings like harbor or marketplace.
- In my core cities, when I am building units, I use Policemen to squish the corrupted red shields and Taxmen otherwise

My thinking is that Taxmen (rather than Scientists) I get gold that I can spend to rush build useful things: units, barracks.
Is this what other players do, when focusing on a military victory?

 

[tjs282]

Until the resistors are quelled in recently conquered towns, I let the city governors take care of them, which means they'll be running Clowns.

Then I build Settlers/Workers out of the remaining foreign citizens, ideally down to Pop1 (but at least <Pop6), then I grow the 'lost' pop-points back fast by focussing on Food, converting excess/unhappy citizens to CivEngs to get Courts + Ducts + Markets up. So far, so pretty much the same as you.

But even for a military game (at Emp+), I still want fast research, so I can keep selling older techs to the AIs who I haven't declared on yet. So the only Specialists I run in towns where corruption is low/ multiplier buildings exist will be Cops and/or Geeks, and only when those citizens cannot work tiles for some reason. And on the fringes, only CivEngs or Geeks.

Coincidentally, I am also playing as (Random-)Carthage on a Large (Random-)Continents map (DG level) right now...

Spoiler Not really relevant to OP :

... but since the Ottomans are my last surviving neighbour, and (nearly) everyone else got to MilTrad (long) before I did, I have only just started my push to conquer my continent — because I wanted Infs + Arty in all my frontline towns (all of the Arty captured + upgraded from my now fully- or nearly-defunct former neighbours, the Iroquois, Zulu and Dutch — Flintlock-patch FTW!), to encourage incoming Sipahi to bypass those harder targets and pull ahead of the defensive stacks, leaving themselves without cover. This allows me to counterattack them with Cavs, and (more recently) Tanks, while the (Cav-)Armies I've acquired to date, slowly push the front forwards.

I became tech leader during the Industrial Age courtesy of Electricity + SciMethod (= ToE -->) AtomTheory + Electronics, which earned me a ton of cash + techs — mainly from the Vikings + Koreans on the other major landmass. Ragnar + Wang are both still Industrial, but I am 3-4T away from Computers, with a Palace-prebuild going in Leptis Minor for SETI, and the intention of going for Miniaturization next while prebuilding The_Internet (which I can convert to UN, if Wang and/or Suley lucks Fission as his Modern-Age freebie).

Haven't decided how I want to win this one: with my current tech-lead I could pick any of Dom, Conq, Space, or even Diplo — since I have (amazingly!) managed to keep my trade-rep completely intact throughout this game

...where I've been using almost exactly the Specialist-assignment priorities described above.

My thinking is that Taxmen (rather than Scientists) I get gold that I can spend to rush build useful things: units, barracks.

If I wanted Barracks in a CrapTown^TM, I'd use CivEngs for those as well; I think this would likely be (much) more efficient than using Taxmen to earn gold, and then using that gold for rush-buying.

And I'd build my expensive units in my core rather than cash-rushing them in the boonies; if fully railed+irrigated, CrapTowns^TM would be better used as a source of cannon-fodder draftee-Rifles/-Infs/-MechInfs, and/or slow-built ships/ bombardment-units.

Taxman-gold might be more useful than Geek-beakers in high-level games where you're way behind on tech, and/or games on Large+ maps, for buying techs from the AI-Civs. Not sure about that, though, since (due to the AIs' markup on the beaker-price) purchasing lesser-known techs can sometimes(?) be more expensive than researching them.

 

[justanick]

I advise against taxmen. Using scientists and lowering the tech rate seems the smarter choice.

But do you even want to lower your research output? Making research a priority has merits while using money to buy things is rather inefficient.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I advise against taxmen. Using scientists and lowering the tech rate seems the smarter choice.

But do you even want to lower your research output? Making research a priority has merits while using money to buy things is rather inefficient.

Thank you. This is exactly the kind of dialog I was looking for.

My thinking goes something like this: In a Space Race (or Diplo) victory, I need to keep my research rate up to get to the Modern Era.

In a Conquest or Domination victory, I've read comments here like, "I basically turned off research after Military Tradition, and produced tons of Cavalry to conquer the world." OK, how does one *do* that, exactly? Drop the science slider down, yes. But what specialists should be used? Or do I keep all the citizens working, all the time?
My thinking had always been, turn the extra citizens into Scientists, for extra science. "More science is always good." If I'm understanding you correctly, I should:

• Use scientist specialists, especially for those cities who are converting their meager 1, 2, or 5 shields per turn into Wealth
• Turn down the science slider, so that a greater percentage of commerce is converted to gold which may be spent to rush-build units or barracks

This approach would be more efficient at producing gold-per-turn than turning all those Scientists into Tax Collectors. Have I understood correctly?

 

[justanick]

In a Conquest or Domination victory, I've read comments here like, "I basically turned off research after Military Tradition, and produced tons of Cavalry to conquer the world."

That can make sense. Personally i donnot like it. I want to build something up and that takes research. But no research starting at cavalry makes perfect sense. Why delay victory any longer?

But what specialists should be used? Or do I keep all the citizens working, all the time?

Well, it depends. Good tiles in the core should definitely be used, so there the priority is citizens over specialists. Policemen are better for production than taxmen, but only if there are shields that can be uncorrupted. That is a limited amount of shields in a limited amount of towns. And if multiplier buildings like banks are there, then policemen are no worse than taxmen for generating money. With stock exchanges 2 policemen give 5 gold while 2 taxmen give only 4.

Use scientist specialists, especially for those cities who are converting their meager 1, 2, or 5 shields per turn into Wealth

Building Wealth is what you should not do. Build military instead and disband it elsewhere for shields if that is what you need. That is more efficient or rather less inefficient.

In the long run building wealth can make sense, but only to boost your research, not for boosting your production.

• Turn down the science slider, so that a greater percentage of commerce is converted to gold which may be spent to rush-build units or barracks

This approach would be more efficient at producing gold-per-turn than turning all those Scientists into Tax Collectors. Have I understood correctly?

Lower science spending is preferable to taxmen, yes. Rushbuildung units and barracks may not be the best best course of action, but that is mostly a matter of priorities. Usually building units by regular means will get you into paying high amounts of unit support anyway. So that will cut down the amount of gold left for rushing anyway. In my opinion cashrushing should be left for aqueducts and courthouses to accelerate the essential economic build up. Later there is little need to convert money into production, at least if you planned properly ahead.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Outside my core, I always have at least 10 cities that have very low production: 1 or 2 uncorrupted shield per turn. After doing some conquering with Knights, Trebs and Muskets in the Middle Ages, that group of low production cities may be 15-18. By the time I upgrade to Cavalry and Cannons, I have more than 20 low production cities.

As you note, it is a matter of priorities.
If I go for space (as I do most often), then I grow those cities to size 12 using a 'Duct and usually include a Marketplace for the happiness multiplier. The extra citizens become Scientists. Since those cities do not have Barracks, I usually don't build units there, just Wealth. Your suggestion is that I should build.... slowly... units like Explorers or some other cheap unit (regular experience) and disband it in a city that can use the shields as part of its build.

If I go for military, the slow build of regular units to disband in other cities with Barracks speeds up the building of Vet units with better attack values. These low production cities could also produce Settlers or Workers... slowly... but I usually have captured 20 or so slave workers during the wars so I'm not lacking the ability to improve my tiles.

Efficiency: It's less inefficient to convert shields into shields than convert shields into gold, which I would spend to rush production.
Yes, I can see that now.

The only upside to converting shields into gold is that gold may be easily spent in any city in my empire.
Moving shields around (in the form of units to disband) means that I have to explicitly move them to where I want them to go.

 

[justanick]

If I go for military, the slow build of regular units to disband in other cities with Barracks speeds up the building of Vet units with better attack values.

In practice disbanding units to build units is no smart move*. Disbanding is meant to help build useful things, not units. Disbanding say 4 3/3 cavs to get one 4/4 cav is obviously not efficient. They way i see it both cash-rushing and disband-rushing is meant to help cities gain essential buildings and become productive. Once you have a properly developed core of 20+ cities of size 10+ your regular production is hopefully high enough to met your military needs. Anything beyond that can speed up your game by maybe a few turns, but that is really more icing on the cake. The cake is more important than the icing.

*: The exception would be building settlers in freshly conquored towns.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Agreed! My core cities are productive enough to meet my military needs. My original question is: what to do *outside* the core?
Given that many fringe cities have only 1 or 2 uncorrupted shields, it may not make much difference.
You've already written that you keep building science at a low level, even after reaching Military Tradition.

In the corrupt outer cities, I see a few choices:

1. Grow them to use all the available food, since larger cities give more support under Republic. Build a 'Duct if needed to use all the food. After that, build Wealth and set the extra citizens to be Scientists. Scientists provide uncorrupted beakers.
2. Grow them to use all the available food, as above. After that, slow build Explorers or cheap units to be disbanded in other cities. Set the extra citizens to be Scientists, since they provide uncorrupted beakers.
3. Same as 1, but instead set the extra citizens to be Taxmen for extra gpt, used to buy luxuries or other useful things. Taxmen provide uncorrupted gold.
4. Same as 2, but instead set the extra citizens to be Taxmen for extra gpt, used to buy luxuries or other useful things. Taxmen provide uncorrupted gold.

I've been following option 1 for all my recent games. I'm curious if any of the other options make more sense / are more efficient for my empire as a whole.

 

[justanick]

Given that many fringe cities have only 1 or 2 uncorrupted shields, it may not make much difference.

Indeed it does not. Maybe you should rephrase your question: What do you need? What do you intend to achieve?

If it is really just 1 shield, then wealth makes sense as you will get 1 gold per 1 shield instead of 1 gold per 4 shields or 1 gold per 2 shields with economics. So that helps to deal with unit support costs.

A different approach for highly corrupt towns is to build them up properly, but still prioritize research, so use scientists instead of engineers and no reduction in science spending. With courthouse and police station corruption will be capped at 70%. The shields for building the outer cities up mainly stem from disbanding unneeded units produced in the core cities. Once your core cities have hospitals, railways, factories and power plants they can produce military units in abundance, but paying unit support is best avioded. If production is really that plenty, why not put it to good use in the outer realms? The apparent disadvantage is, that the return on investment is meager.

Whatever approach you pursue: There difference will amount to little of relevance. Using those towns to build workers and settlers is a common approach, especially in preparation for laying railroads in the early industrial age. You can conquer the world without railroads, but it is really desirable? This is more a question of taste than of strategy, though.

 

[LordofDread]

In my opinion it also depends on where your enemies stand technologically and economically. If the Americans already have Infantry, and are capable to produce them in masses, you should:

- For every "Army" you field against them, take along at least 10 Arts and so many workers, such that you can build 2 railroads every turn while invading. Otherwise your Tanks will fall like flies in the long run. If they only got Riflemen, it may be situational.

So lets say you really wanna max out production and get an Army of Doom:

Option 1: Switch to Communism. Your current highly corrupt cities will be productive instantly, and become even more so if you get a Courthouse for those cities. Another advantage of Commie is, your newly captured cities on the other continent will be reasonably productive too. Use them for building Artillery, workers, or even pop-rush temples at your borders. You wont need to lower science on Commie. No problems with war, riots and unit upkeep. No specialists needed there.
Option 2: If you stay in Rep/Demo use your cash to part rush units. This can also be quite effective in cities, where you have, say like 10 uncorrupted shields. After one turn, cash-rush an Arty or Guerilla, then switch the build for Tank, which then takes 2 turns, or 1 turn, respectively, to finish your Tank.
Option 3: Finish your cultural buildings/Wonders and go for Mobilization and therefore serious war. Dont remember if you can cash rush under Mobilization too...
Option 4: Draft like hell in your corrupt cities. Use those drafted men to keep down any rebellion in the cities your about to get.

Make sure you get those masses of new units to the new continent fast - either by Transport or Airlift.

Option 5: That said, you could combine part cash-rush with some Policemen (to get yourself 5 or 10 uncorrupted shields in those cities). In my games however, I only do this if the war is going to be really hard, and every unit and gold amount counts. Or combine some part cash-rush with drafting every now and then! Drawback may be the somewhat high unit upkeep if you draft a lot.

I wouldnt try to build Courthouse and/or Policestation in those cities, as long you're in Rep/Demo its not worth the effort imo. I did this countless times for war purposes, and it NEVER paid off, apart from 1-2 potential high shield cities, where I also rushed a factory afterwards (and 1 Iron Works ).

If you dont need or dont want units from your corrupted cities, Scientists seem to be the logical choice, as others already mentioned.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Thanks, @LordofDread for the detailed reply.

The diplomatic situation played out in a very interesting way this game. While I was researching Industrialization (to get my Factories online), America declared war on me! At that point, I had a small toehold on the other continent. I had taken one city (Stavanger) from the Vikings in a previous war and planned to use that as my staging area for my eventual invasion. Those plans were abandoned as American cavalry quickly overran my toehold in a turn or two. But during the initial turns of the war, I bribed both Japan and Russian into alliances with me against America with Luxuries. Kind of a reversal of WWII, in a weird way. To @LordofDread 's point, I could see that America had some size 10 or size 12 cities for production, but I didn't know how big their army was. I knew that I could make Infantry as reinforcements for my invasion, to resist Abe's counter attack. By enlisting other nations on his landmass, I hoped that Abe would spread out his response to that my invasion (which would come in 10 turns or so) would face less opposition.

Yes, I brought lots of Artillery in my second wave of troops. I remember advice from vmxa long ago that the initial wave should not include bombard units -- more attackers and stout defenders to bear the brunt of the AI's counter attack. Land on defensible terrain, take and hold a city, and then land your reinforcements into that city. In the run-up to this war, I had 3 armies from Military Great Leaders (2 knight armies, 1 Cav army) and a 4th army from the military academy in Carthage. Just before Abe declared on me, I had finished the Pentagon so I could now make 4-unit armies. But I didn't have transports just yet, so I brought extra units in the Galleons and added them in-country.

I debated about switching governments to Communism. The corruption effects are huge, as you point out. The anarchy period might well last 8 turns, given that I had already absorbed all the cities of Egypt, Persia, England, and the Mongols. I've elected not to switch this time.

As I finished the Industrial Age, I wasn't building any wonders. Yes, I had a pre-build going for the UN, but I don't care much about Universal Suffrage. In my core I was making troops, and out in the other cities I was finishing Markets or Aqueducts. I've not yet switched to Mobilization, though I could. Interesting point about drafting; I don't usually do that, since I prefer Veteran units rather than Conscripts. I will see if it makes sense for the final push.

Once I got Flight, I used some workers to make 2 or 3 airfields on the railroads near my core cities and one just outside my beachhead city on the new continent. Tanks, Arty covered by the armies, and bombers started making huge inroads into Abe's forces as my alliances expired. My "allies" got tired of fighting America, made peace, and started attacking each other. After making some significant inroads, and after the alliance agreements expired, I got 3 cities in a cease fire with Abe and regrouped.

Crafty negotiator Lincoln set up an MPP with what was left of the Vikings, who now had a decent sized city (Stockholm) on my border. Once I re-declared, I knew I would (briefly) have a two-front war. Moving into the Modern Era, I built the UN (to make sure that no one else does), airlifted in lots of tanks and infantry, and have taken Washington, New York, and most of Abe's core cities. Progress so far gets me about 61% of the territory, so I'm deciding which direction and which opponents to conquer to get the last 5%.

 

[LordofDread]

Well, this sounds as if you needn't worry about specialists anymore What did you do with them in the end?

Im just recovering from a really frustrating Deity game. OK start location but no lux, resources or anything, and very small space (close AI). Would have still worked out, if it wasnt for taken AI-cities culture flipping back, each along with 10+ brave units of mine. One city even flipped back with 1 Pop the turn my rushed temple should have been completed -.- . Next time I'll just raze them if I'm culturally totally backwards...

Drafting: I also rarely use drafting. But when I have to wage war, and very soon (because the AI seems to be getting Replaceable Parts soon, for example), then I draft in every unproductive city to fill up my ranks. 2 Conscripts are better than 1 Vet (cost more upkeep though). Another useful situation might be, if you plan to attack a superior AI in some turns, while this AI is still fighting another war. If they make peace unexpectedly early, drafting may help to declare war asap, capturing the first cities before the AI's main army returns.

As to policemen specialist & part rushing, this might come in more handy on higher levels due to low OCN, will try this next time...that is, if I stay in Rep/Dem

 

[vorlon_mi]

In the end, I made an arbitrary decision for the non-core cities.

• If a city is still building infrastructure, such as Market, Duct, Granary or Hospital, set them to "hard hats"
• If a city is building wealth, and has 2 or 1 specialists, set them to Scientists
• If a city is building wealth, and has 3 or more specialists, set them to Taxmen

I'm kinda accustomed to (maybe even addicted to) having 900-1500 gold as cash-on-hand in the Industrial Age. It's useful for upgrading Knights to Cavs, Muskets to Infantry, and Cannons to Arty. I've taken the advice of folks here and refrained from updating most city garrison troops unless I really need them. Thus, my mild preference for Taxmen in a military-focused game.

Another fun aspect of Continents maps:
On my land mass, Egypt built the Pyramids which I captured. Thus, I had free Granaries everywhere on my home continent
On the other land mass, America built Sun Tzu, which I captured. Thus, I had free Barracks everywhere over there.
I built many Barracks on my home continent, selling them later if I captured them and the city had few spt to build any troops
I had to build many Granaries on the new continent, so that the conquered cities could grow me new citizens and resist flipping.
As I was way ahead in production in the Middle Ages, I was able to grab Smith's Trading Company with a prebuild. I don't usually do that on a Pangea map when I'm going for Domination, but I took the opportunity. I had thought that it paid support for Markets, Banks, etc. on one continent only.
Turns out it also paid maintenance on Banks that Abe built in his cities that I conquered. Cool!

BTW, I'm playing on a lower difficulty level. I usually play Civ3, Civ4, and Civ5 on the "parity" difficulty level, where the human and AI players are treated the same. I like to out-think and out-plan the AI, but I don't find overcoming their starting units to be a source of fun, for the most part.
The exception is Civ: Beyond Earth Rising Tide, where I play at the 2nd highest level (Soyuz). That's a fun level of challenge. I haven't played enough Civ6 to figure out my favorite difficulty level there.

 

[justanick]

So lets say you really wanna max out production and get an Army of Doom:

Option 1: Switch to Communism. Your current highly corrupt cities will be productive instantly, and become even more so if you get a Courthouse for those cities. Another advantage of Commie is, your newly captured cities on the other continent will be reasonably productive too. Use them for building Artillery, workers, or even pop-rush temples at your borders. You wont need to lower science on Commie. No problems with war, riots and unit upkeep. No specialists needed there.

If you are in communism, then policemen are the specialists of choice. You uncorrupt shields and commerce and on those uncorrupted yields multiplier buildings like libraries and factories apply.

But switching to communism will cost an anarchy period. The key about switching governments is to not switch governments.

Option 3: Finish your cultural buildings/Wonders and go for Mobilization and therefore serious war. Dont remember if you can cash rush under Mobilization too...

That is by far the best option. Cash-rushing is still possible, but arguably unreasonable. In my opinion it is wiser to use the time of mobilization for research or stockpiling money for after mobilization. Also cash-rushing those buildings before mobilization, that cannot be build during mobilization, is a very prudent measure.

So turn down research first, cash-rush all significant non-military buildings, switch mobilization on and resume research on the turn before that. About 10 turns after mobilization has started, start your war. If you wait too long, you will drown in unit support expenses. If you wait not long enough, the critical initial military advantage may fall short of what is required for an efficient conduct of the war.

Option 4: Draft like hell in your corrupt cities. Use those drafted men to keep down any rebellion in the cities your about to get.

That option has a pricetag to it. As the ferengi say: Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to.

Rules of Acquisition

The Rules of Acquisition were the sacred precepts upon which all Ferengi society was based. They were first written by Gint, the first Grand Nagus. In the mid-22nd century there were 173 rules, and by the 24th century there were 285. (ENT: "Acquisition"; DS9: "Rules of Acquisition", "Body...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

 

[justanick]

Would have still worked out, if it wasnt for taken AI-cities culture flipping back, each along with 10+ brave units of mine.

Hence you should not use units against flipping. Always suspect that what can flip will flip anyway.

Drafting: I also rarely use drafting. But when I have to wage war, and very soon (because the AI seems to be getting Replaceable Parts soon, for example), then I draft in every unproductive city to fill up my ranks. 2 Conscripts are better than 1 Vet (cost more upkeep though).

This upkeep tends to matter much. Before the industrial age production is a bit restrictive. But in the industrial age this changes. Nationalism enables both drafting and mobilization. Hence once you can draft you no longer should draft because regular production during mobilization will soon create upkeep troubles anyway.

 

[LordofDread]

@justanick

Thank you very much for your insight. I can agree with most what you said. Not heavily fortifing captured cities when culturally really backwards is one hard learned lesson. Instead, I use now a defense perimeter next to the cities (sometimes even with fortress, if I'm not capable to capture adjacent cities in the few next rounds).

What I dont see as strict as you seem to do is "once you can draft, you shouldnt draft". The Ferengi also know how to use an opportunity once they see one. In my current game, I planned to attack the Greeks on my borders in a few rounds early Industrial Age. I therefore planned to start mobilizing my Democracy in 2 turns, setting science to 0% and used the current capital (around 2k) and the income from next round (around 1.5k) to rush or part rush some remaining libraries, universities or marketplaces (also one factory at a high shield city from wiped out Aztec).

Good plan - or so I thought. But the Americans got ahead of me and attacked the Greeks after turn 3 (the first turn I mobilized). So I drafted around 15 Infantry the same turn in the former Aztec area, and used them to defend the former Aztec Cities (no border cities). The Veteran Infantry (almost every former Aztec City had one Vet) I then sent to the front immediately. If I hadn't done that, I would have 100% lost the race against the core Greek cities vs the Americans, which would have cost me more in the long run. Because soon wiped out Greek shared a long border with the Americans, I was later able to capture 5 American cities in turn 1 of the American-Iroquois War (lasted 4 turns only). Going to mobilize earlier would have been wrong from a scientific perspective. Drafting immediately was the optimal choice in this setting.

In a later war vs the Incan's (the last civ remaining on my continent) I did some further draft testing (I still had a small lack of defenders, because I had 2 long mountain/hill borders vs the Incan's). Conclusions:

- Conscript Infantry defending on Mountains will get attacked by vet. AI-Cavalry. This seems to have its advantages and disadvantages. They win more often than not. Some die, some get promoted. They leave redlined enemy cav's, ready for your elites
- 1 HP Infantry defending on Mountain will get attacked by vet. Medieveal Infantry.

The primary usefulness of drafting seems defending non-border and non-coastal cities, giving your vet defenders more flexibility.

Having all that said, if the Americans hadn't attacked the Greeks I wouldnt have drafted anyone. The Inca War was simply for testing draft a bit (there was no military need for it, could've also waited 2 more turns in mobilization). For me it remains an optional tool, when things dont work out as planned, or when a window of opportunity opens (and is about to close very fast again).

 

[justanick]

Drafting is a tool for emergencies, when you failed to build up proper forces in time for whatever the (unexpected) need may be. If you have more luck in planning ahead you are likely not to need it, but you cannot be certain to have that amount of luck. You could reduce your need for luck by maintaining a larger regular army, but those costs need to be weighted with the risks.

Disbanding drafted units gives the same amount of shields as disbanding proper units. That can be useful for giving freshly conquored towns some shields.