Spells related question.

[Vehem]

It counters itself.
Once you get Strength of Will (or an archmage hero) you can undo their mountain wall.

The reason for the spell system suffering in FFH and FF is that the most powerful spells have been removed due to being overpowered. And this is a real problem.
3 Turns for offensive destructive spells which damage every unit around them up to a severe damage and by a great amount is what I could think to be just fine.
When I upload the modded system, it will become more clear if the cool down is too much or too little.
As for the terraforming, the ability to create peaks is *very* game-breaking. Having 4 Archmages, you could create 4 peaks every 5 turns. I feel this should be discouraged.
Again, only testing will say if it is too much. Not to mention that, If you go with Lichdom, you could have 8 Archmages doing the job, which could be even more gamebreaking.
Also, I am sure you have noticed that mages and adepts are now going to be much more useful. The other spheres will gain an offensive line as well, and some useless spells of the normal line will be enhanced or replaced.
So, those very powerful level 3 spells should be kept from being abused.

The only thing that stops them from "countering itself" is that it then forces every civ to have Archmagi. A melee heavy (Phalanx) path will be useless as they'd have no way to get over the mountains. Strength of Will becomes a logistic necessity rather than a high level arcane tech. None of the ones Thunder has described so far have that issue...

On the topic of fire and peaks being the same - there are promotions that allow movement through fire and there is a level 1 spell that counters it. It is also temporary in most cases.

 

[Honor]

* Dwarven airships ftw

* Flying mounts could be another way to go, available with animal mastery.

* Another one could be a drilling capsule, available at machinery, that is a very slow (1 move) transport used specifically for drilling through mountain ranges.

* A special type of tactical ops unit, possibly on the melee line, that can traverse peaks also comes to mind.

I do not know if the gameplay value added will outweigh the increased level of complexity introduced with the peak creation/destruction/aversion system, though.

 

[xienwolf]

While you are working heavily on spells, I'll state my own personal preference:

The Sorcery Line of Techs should contain an EMPHASIS on spells. It should NOT contain a MONOPOLY on spells.

This is a world which is naturally magical. Spells and abilities should be scattered throughout the tech tree. In some cases they should still be available for Arcane units only (Honor's idea of Flying Mounts at Animal Mastery), in some cases they should be attached to specific units (like Divided Souls), and there should be many cases where they are available for all units, or the player in general (like Sirona's Touch).



Especially if emphasis is given on making the Sorcery Line be about raw magical strength, and the scattered spells in other tech lines be about enhancement or deense, you can integrate magic better, and make it far stronger (since random units will gain access to defensive countermeasures naturally, thus allowing more powerful spells since a counter or defense is available without forcing someone's hand down a specific pathway on Techs)

 

[Thunder_Gr]

While you are working heavily on spells, I'll state my own personal preference:

The Sorcery Line of Techs should contain an EMPHASIS on spells. It should NOT contain a MONOPOLY on spells.

This is a world which is naturally magical. Spells and abilities should be scattered throughout the tech tree. In some cases they should still be available for Arcane units only (Honor's idea of Flying Mounts at Animal Mastery), in some cases they should be attached to specific units (like Divided Souls), and there should be many cases where they are available for all units, or the player in general (like Sirona's Touch).



Especially if emphasis is given on making the Sorcery Line be about raw magical strength, and the scattered spells in other tech lines be about enhancement or deense, you can integrate magic better, and make it far stronger (since random units will gain access to defensive countermeasures naturally, thus allowing more powerful spells since a counter or defense is available without forcing someone's hand down a specific pathway on Techs)

At this point in FF and FFH, the Disciple line has many and strong spells. In fact, they are much more powerful than the arcane line of spells.
I also think, that you have given a priority to the other units, in a way that Arcane units are almost useless, until they reach Strength of Will.
Especially in FF, the fireballs are much weaker than in FFH, since they do not get advandages from empower and spell extension.
So, my primary goal, at this point, is to rework the Arcane magic in such a way that it is useful, diverse, strong, but not overpowered.
I want to make archmages really strong offensivelly, but not gamebreakers. This is why the 3rd level spells get cooldown times relative to their strength. The archmages will be able to weaken the enemy, but they will be weak for the next few turns, and almost completely useless. So, the mages, adepts and the rest of the troops will have to take action in the meantime.
Also, I want to allow specialization of the Arcane units.
I do not intend to add spells to units outside the Arcane line, since I believe they are already filled with abilities and special promotions.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Intended for Air:

Normal Line:
1)Fair Winds. Same as it is now
2)Strong Winds. Temporarily removes all formation promotions from enemy units in adjacent tiles
3)Fly. The caster's stack gains the ability to fly for one turn. The units cannot attack this turn. Units already attacked this turn will not gain fly. The caster will be unable to cast any spells for 2 turns. The spell will be available only to Arcane Units

Offensive line:
1)Lightning bolt. Summons a lightning bolt 0(+2 lightning), 1(+1 with flying) movement, single target. 5% chance for the target to be shocked for 1 turn(Immobilised, -10% strength).
2)Chain Lightning. Summons a Lightning 0(+4 lightning), collateral damage up to 5 units. Units that get hit(>0% damage) have 10% to become severerly shocked for 1 to 3 turns(Immobilised, -20% strength)
3)Lightning Storm. Does up to 90% damage to all units in range 2 up to a max of 90% damage. Units hit have a chance based on the damage they have taken to become very severly shocked for 2 to 5 turns(Immobilised, -40% strength). The caster will be unable to cast anything for 4 turns. The spell will only be available to Arcane units.

 

[Vehem]

3)Lightning Storm. Does up to 90% damage to all units in range 2 up to a max of 90% damage. Units hit have a chance based on the damage they have taken to become very severly shocked for 2 to 5 turns(Immobilised, -40% strength). The caster will be unable to cast anything for 4 turns. The spell will only be available to Arcane units.

Be very careful with the big numbers. That's a one cast spell that will turn a lot of stacks into all-you-can-eat XP for your other units. Attacking almost any unit with 10% strength left is an almost guaranteed kill (given that damage means both less chance to win per round and less lost rounds needed to kill them). One archmage and a stack of scouts could wipe out any stack of units, even if they were all effective strength 30+. Especially with the immobilize thrown in.

90% cap is *very* powerful, but allowing upto 90% damage for the single cast is *too* powerful. There was a reason Maelstrom had to be toned down, even if you may disagree with it - this is far beyond Maelstrom...

====

Got to say though - I really like the two earlier lightning spells.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Be very careful with the big numbers. That's a one cast spell that will turn a lot of stacks into all-you-can-eat XP for your other units. Attacking almost any unit with 10% strength left is an almost guaranteed kill (given that damage means both less chance to win per round and less lost rounds needed to kill them). One archmage and a stack of scouts could wipe out any stack of units, even if they were all effective strength 30+. Especially with the immobilize thrown in.

90% cap is *very* powerful, but allowing upto 90% damage for the single cast is *too* powerful. There was a reason Maelstrom had to be toned down, even if you may disagree with it - this is far beyond Maelstrom...

====

Got to say though - I really like the two earlier lightning spells.

The reason the one cast is so high, is because it will be a random 0 to 90%. An average of 45%. This is to express the chaotic nature of the lightning. It can do severe damage or no damage at all.
In addition, it is a spell that does damage to all units within range, including you own...So, it is double edged knife. The 4 turn cooldown is also a severe drawback. It requires careful calculation when to use it, and the results may be much frustrating.

Maelstorm was a level 2 spell. And it was very powerful for a level 2 spell, without a cooldown period. But lightning storm is a level 3 spell and has a large cooldown period.
If testing shows it is indeed too powerful, I will tone it down, but, in theory, it sounds balanced enough...

 

[Vehem]

The reason the one cast is so high, is because it will be a random 0 to 90%. An average of 45%. This is to express the chaotic nature of the lightning. It can do severe damage or no damage at all.
In addition, it is a spell that does damage to all units within range, including you own...So, it is double edged knife. The 4 turn cooldown is also a severe drawback. It requires careful calculation when to use it, and the results may be much frustrating.

Ah - so have you set the damage to actually be 45 then? Or are you not using the standard damage function?

Whatever value you give to doDamage is used to generate 2 random numbers which are summed, so Rand(45) + Rand(45) gives from 0 to 88 Damage as 45 isn't included, needs to be 46 to give 0-90. It's normally distributed though, so most of the time damage will be in the 35 to 55 range.

If you give it 90 as a damage value, it's actually calculating from 0 to 178 as a possible damage range, so you're going to hit cap on everything from 90 to 178, with most of the damage around the 80 to 100 mark (capped to 90).

====

Regarding the "own units in range" - that was never a real drawback to SoDing with Maelstrom, so can't really rely on it here. 4 turn cooldown would also have been a moot point if you were damaging units to 10% left, as you'd probably need 4 turns to move onto the next city (having just wiped this one out with the aforementioned scouts). If the damage is a little more random (not the default doDamage), it may well work out - though if it is just 45 damage passed into doDamage, then you only need 2 archmagi to recreate the same result... Stack damaging effects with high caps are deceptively powerful even with lower damage per cast...

 

[zup]

But it would encourage taking magic resistance promotions, which are not very high on my priority list currently. 70% resistance makes hell of a lot of difference.

 

[Deon]

70 % resistance would lead to a great loss of strength promos.

And while there could be a mod with moving mountains (original theme), I don't see it in the main FF release.

The reason is: with a huge amount of additions this mod became quite bad for multiplayer because of a lot of possible OOS/CTDs. But I find it new and refreshing in singleplayer.
The issue with terraforming and pathfinding are 2 main problems with AI. You just can't predict each and every situation AI can screw itself in. I already saw a lot of "waiting" settlers with age > 50 in current FF, and it's not going to better if you give AI more power over hurting itself . I already notice the problem with "all improvements avaliable" for AI, however I like it.

So, I find this option nice for a modmod for someone's pleasure.

Currently I highly value all additions FF made which can be used by AI. It's much funnier to have unique competitors rather than ragdolls .

 

[Vehem]

But it would encourage taking magic resistance promotions, which are not very high on my priority list currently. 70% resistance makes hell of a lot of difference.

Fair point - will be interesting to see if it actually goes that way. I suspect the prereqs may make the magic resist promotions a little out of reach for most units though (Combat 3 + Magic Resistance + Lightning Resistance -> Level 5 without aggressive).

Would there be a major problem with having the Magic resistance line totally independent from the Combat line? Magic Resistance I and II, each 20% against elemental damage types (as with present MR I), plus the standard X-Resistance promotions at 50%, available after Magic Resistance I (as present). Magic Resistance I having no prereq at all other than Knowledge of the Ether.

Would allow upto 90% resistance to specific elements (or all 4 if you're willing to spend that many promotions), but would make it explicitly the unit's own fault if they've neglected to take any given how easy they'd be to reach.

 

[Deon]

Would there be a major problem with having the Magic resistance line totally independent from the Combat line? Magic Resistance I and II

I find it cool. Just don't let AI get it in normal situation, or it will be owned by usual units .
And I suggest the next thing: you could level fire/air/whatever sphere defences to level 1/2/3 if you had 1/2/3 mana nodes of that type.

 

[Randomness]

I think arcane units should have a slight resistance (say somthing in the 5-10% area) for each spell sphere they take. A fire three archmage should have enough mastery over fire to at least lessen the burns. Unless you have some craziley amazing unit with all spell spheres to three and max spell resistance on all elements, it really won't do too much, simpley add a little. If they do already do this, excuse my ignorence...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Ah - so have you set the damage to actually be 45 then? Or are you not using the standard damage function?

Whatever value you give to doDamage is used to generate 2 random numbers which are summed, so Rand(45) + Rand(45) gives from 0 to 88 Damage as 45 isn't included, needs to be 46 to give 0-90. It's normally distributed though, so most of the time damage will be in the 35 to 55 range.

If you give it 90 as a damage value, it's actually calculating from 0 to 178 as a possible damage range, so you're going to hit cap on everything from 90 to 178, with most of the damage around the 80 to 100 mark (capped to 90).

For this spell, I intend to bypass the normal damage function and manipulate the damage through python. I can only hope it will not be too dificult to do, but I am sure I will find a way in the end

Regarding the "own units in range" - that was never a real drawback to SoDing with Maelstrom, so can't really rely on it here. 4 turn cooldown would also have been a moot point if you were damaging units to 10% left, as you'd probably need 4 turns to move onto the next city (having just wiped this one out with the aforementioned scouts). If the damage is a little more random (not the default doDamage), it may well work out - though if it is just 45 damage passed into doDamage, then you only need 2 archmagi to recreate the same result... Stack damaging effects with high caps are deceptively powerful even with lower damage per cast...

Maelstorm was always a bit tricky to use. The point was that, if you accidentally caught your own units in the range, it was not too much of a problem, since the damage was not that troubling. There will be much more troubling with Lightning Storm, though, since such a negletion can lead to to crippling your own troops very badly.

The idea to get magic resistance out of the Combat line sounds very good. I would suggest to give it a level requirement though. Level 3 should be fine. This way, the elemental damaging units are not going to be crippled too much.

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

Unless they've changed it since I last used it [a few patches ago when I was still big on the Lanun and Arcane Barges] I don't think it damages units in the same tile. Personally, if you are going to have a thunderstorm... have a THUNDERSTORM. Perhaps a modified Blizzard that randomly strikes units within a 1-2 square radius, lasting x random turns, that damages EVERYTHING in it's area of affect... Your own troops included. That will do serious damage to an enemy while not being too overpowered... It won't be safe to attack and conquer them until after the storm passes or you'll be hit while in their cities, or approaching. And if the caster himself isn't lightning immune... Heh.

Sorry, just a flavor-wise "That would be sweet" rather then a ballance-wise or realistic idea.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Unless they've changed it since I last used it [a few patches ago when I was still big on the Lanun and Arcane Barges] I don't think it damages units in the same tile.

It is not changed.

Personally, if you are going to have a thunderstorm... have a THUNDERSTORM. Perhaps a modified Blizzard that randomly strikes units within a 1-2 square radius, lasting x random turns, that damages EVERYTHING in it's area of affect... Your own troops included. That will do serious damage to an enemy while not being too overpowered... It won't be safe to attack and conquer them until after the storm passes or you'll be hit while in their cities, or approaching. And if the caster himself isn't lightning immune... Heh.

Due to the time representation of 1 turn in FF, making a ThunderStorm that persists through several turns, equals a ThunderStorm that persist several years, which is quite unrealistic. The Blizzards appearing after the Deepening are permanent, and are justified by their nature. A ThunderStorm would rarerly, if ever, last more than a day or two. Even Hurricanes do not last more than a few days.

 

[WarKirby]

A thought I had

How about, to cast these big spells, you could require some greater investment in a specific arcane path. Via multiple mana sources. For example, big fire spells could require yor empire to posess 2-3 fire mana.

This would provide a commitment choice for more power, and it would also make a civ less adaptable, so they would be easier to counter with the right promotions.

Currently, I feel that elemental resistance promotions are a bit flawed. Sure you can learn Fire resistance, but then your opponent just casts an air spell instead. It's not too hard to field such a variety of magic that it can never be effectively resisted.

Requiring multiple mana sources for some higher levels spells, would overall limit the variety of spells you have acess to, and make promotion choices clearer for those looking to counter your magic.


Also, as awesome as this discusson is, it's gotten seriously off topic.
Perhaps you should make a new thread thunder.

 

[Breez]

I would love to see spells become much more prominent but my worry will always be the AI and how it uses/counters them.

Fair point - will be interesting to see if it actually goes that way. I suspect the prereqs may make the magic resist promotions a little out of reach for most units though (Combat 3 + Magic Resistance + Lightning Resistance -> Level 5 without aggressive).

Would there be a major problem with having the Magic resistance line totally independent from the Combat line? Magic Resistance I and II, each 20% against elemental damage types (as with present MR I), plus the standard X-Resistance promotions at 50%, available after Magic Resistance I (as present). Magic Resistance I having no prereq at all other than Knowledge of the Ether.

Would allow upto 90% resistance to specific elements (or all 4 if you're willing to spend that many promotions), but would make it explicitly the unit's own fault if they've neglected to take any given how easy they'd be to reach.

I think that would be great. You might also consider making 3 levels of your Magic Resistance 10%/10%/20% and give Arcane Units level 1 by default and/or a building or gear to give units the level 1 promo.

Maybe only for Magic heavy races, or maybe for them ways to get levels 1 AND 2.

 

[Vehem]

I think that would be great. You might also consider making 3 levels of your Magic Resistance 10%/10%/20% and give Arcane Units level 1 by default and/or a building or gear to give units the level 1 promo.

Would you spend a promotion for a low level unit on a 10% resist though? High level units (that already have their combat/cityraider/drill promotions) can already invest in Magic Resist without much loss in potential, but we're aiming to allow some lower level units to choose to specialize in resistance so that the higher powered spells aren't a "win-all". The aim is to make the low level units choose between the options. If they take Combat and face Magic Resist, it would be their own fault. Likewise in reverse.

20% combat strength vs 10% magic resist isn't much of a decision. I'm not sure that 20% combat vs 20% magic is actually that appealing for the resist line either - might need a bit of an additional perk there.

 

[Breez]

So would a better option be 2 levels 20%/10% and have a 2nd promo "line" unrelated sort of how the 50% is unrelated? Just trying to think of ways to get some units a native resist with out putting them up to 100%.

Alternatively, Remove the 2nd level all together. Put +5% resist mods on a couple of other already existing (but lesser chosen) promos.

Add a 10% promo that you can give to some units nativity or thru buildings or civ trait or what ever.

Have everyone without that Max at 80% resistance and those that get it max at 90%.

Please note: ALL my suggestions are always just brainstorming. I never expect any idea of mine to be taken at face value. I just hope to spark an idea someone else can refine.