Spend X to get more X?

[sprang]

Many buildings/wonders/virtues in CivBE are NOT worth it because they are "Spend production to get more production" or "Spend CUlture to get a Virtue that Gives more Culture (or more virtues)". But you never get enough back to cover the cost of your investment, or not in a reasonable time.

Examples:
The two culture-boosting Knowledge virtues
Buildings/Wonders to boost production
Wonders to speed wonder production
Technologies that only seem to give a science building/improvement bonus



That's why I gave up on Knowledge Virtues.

 

[Roxlimn]

Cognition gives Academies and the Knowledge Virtues for it gives +2 per tile. With that I can push my science up several hundred bpt within a very short span of time (pretty much as much as it takes to get the Academies up post-Cognition),

"Investment" is a good way to view it, but calculating hammers in for hammers out without context or relevance to other game systems is the entirely wrong way to measure their worth. Or more succinctly, the question isn't even wrong.

 

[Hail]

Many buildings/wonders/virtues in CivBE are NOT worth it because they are "Spend production to get more production" or "Spend CUlture to get a Virtue that Gives more Culture (or more virtues)". But you never get enough back to cover the cost of your investment, or not in a reasonable time.

ROI is a good baseline for judging the usefullness of a building/wonder. It becomes especially easy if the building/wonder gives hammers.

for example, the Armasail wonder (from the tech "Synergetics") costs 1250 hammers and gives +5 hammers per turn. for the price of 8 battlesuits, the player gets +5 hammers
The Armasail will pay back for itself in 250 turns!!

 

[sprang]

Cognition gives Academies and the Knowledge Virtues for it gives +2 per tile. With that I can push my science up several hundred bpt within a very short span of time (pretty much as much as it takes to get the Academies up post-Cognition),

"Investment" is a good way to view it, but calculating hammers in for hammers out without context or relevance to other game systems is the entirely wrong way to measure their worth. Or more succinctly, the question isn't even wrong.

But to get to the Academy booster, you have to waste probably three virtues:
+.25 from citizens will never cover the cost of the virtue
-10% cost of virtues will never cover the cost of the virtue
-city penalty for virtues will never cover the cost of the virtue

That assumes you get the two science boosters. If you skip those and beeline the Right side of Knowledge, you still take +.25 and then take + for Health.

You've already got the academies - the virtue is providing +2 per tile. How much is that really? Do you have 100+ academies? Maybe.... but I doubt you're coming out ahead here if you account for the opportunity cost of the wasted virtues and worker turns.

I think that in some cases, the "investment" is worth it:
Recyclers, esp for the 10% worker speed, and it comes so early.
The Titanium-boosting production buildings are great.
As PAC, the Crawler (+25% Wonders) is nice because I can build it if no other wonders are available to speed the endgame or outrace an AI.

But often, spending X to get more X is still the worst choice.

 

[Roxlimn]

I told you that the perspective is not even wrong. The question is not the right one.

Rather - what could I be getting instead of the Academy bonus and the Culture bonus, and what do they do?

The worst examples are the hammers. It's not a "waste" to spend hammers for more hammers. The right question is: "What do hammers do?"

 

[sprang]

I told you that the perspective is not even wrong. The question is not the right one.

Rather - what could I be getting instead of the Academy bonus and the Culture bonus, and what do they do?

The worst examples are the hammers. It's not a "waste" to spend hammers for more hammers. The right question is: "What do hammers do?"

I saw what you said.
The answer to your question is, "Nuts let you build useful things."
If you need units to win, build units. If you need wonders to win, build wonders. If you need science to win, build buildings to get more science.

Example: if you have a new city and you need more science, you should always build the Laboratory first and then the Recycler. If you need more culture, you build the OER and Alien Sanctuary first. If you need health, you build the Pharmalab first. Building the Recycler first is NEVER the best option.

What could you get instead of the academy bonus?
That's four or five virtues! Eudamonia - and good stuff on the way? Magnasanti- and ditto? +40% intrigue, Free Affinity, +20% Affinity from Tech... Those are all pretty powerful.

Don't forget the Knowledge Synergy Bonus: 10% culture - yet another "spend culture to get culture" reward. Instead, of that, Prosperity II is +1 Health/city, and Industry II is +10% production.

 

[Roxlimn]

Sure, but you see all you did was convert stuff into other stuff - you didn't really do anything with it just yet.

If you need more Science and you can already build a Laboratory, it's good to build the Lab. If you need Culture and you can build an Alien Preserve, then you do that. The thing is, you can't always do that, and you don't always want to. Well, not with the Science and Culture - it's nearly always handy to have more of those.

If what you want is fast production of Battlesuits, you need to have the tech first. Until you have the tech, you have hammers that you have to spend every turn. You can't store hammers. Hammer-creating buildings and improvements are the only thing that allows you to "store" hammers, and they're not very efficient at that, of course. But then, if you want storage efficiency, you'd be making Energy, not Hammers.

+20% Affinity from Tech is surely a powerful victory aid, but before it comes +50% XP to Military units. Do I want that? Can I use that? If I never expect to wage a serious war (or I don't expect to lose to the AI in any case), then the first Virtue is completely useless is it not? It doesn't merely not pay for itself - it is completely useless other than a requirement for the good things.

Will Free Affinity +40% Intrigue, and Eudamonia - will they give me something like 500 more bpt? I'm kind of doubting it, but feel free to elaborate the cost/benefit calculations.

Point being, it's not culture spent that you should be comparing the Virtue towards. It's what the other thing that you got could be doing. Now, I'm not a die-hard fan of the Knowledge tree, but the +0.25 science per person is pretty spiffy. The +0.25 Culture comes fairly early, too, and helps to expand borders neatly. Will I get that benefit from Prosperity? No. So I can't spend it on Prosperity and get a better thing that does exactly the same thing - perhaps I can get more value. That goes to balancing the Virtues against each other. But it won't be the same thing.

By the by, Recycler adds an explicit +1 hammer per Trade Route over and above its base effect, so if the Capital has 5 TRs coming in, the Recycler is actually outputting 7 hammers per turn, at least.

 

[AlaskA]

Many buildings/wonders/virtues in CivBE are NOT worth it because they are "Spend production to get more production" or "Spend CUlture to get a Virtue that Gives more Culture (or more virtues)". But you never get enough back to cover the cost of your investment, or not in a reasonable time.

Examples:
The two culture-boosting Knowledge virtues
Buildings/Wonders to boost production
Wonders to speed wonder production
Technologies that only seem to give a science building/improvement bonus



That's why I gave up on Knowledge Virtues.

Hm, it's interesting. Im really like virtues u r telling about.
Can u tell me, how can i upgrade my virtue build? (look attachment)

 

[Aimeryan]

With the buildings there are also building quests to consider.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Ok. For example, I need ectogenesis pod, which costs 300 hammers. Also there are recycler which costs 75 hammers and generates 2 hammers. Say, I got 15 hammers base. Which will be faster - to build Ectogenesis Pod first, or to build Recycler first and then Ectogenesis Pod. The former is faster by 2 turns.

Is it right to compare it like that? The answer is NO. This would've been an adequate comparison if recyclers and EP became available simultaneously, which won't happen.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Examples:
The two culture-boosting Knowledge virtues

Which also increase border expansion rate.

Buildings/Wonders to boost production

Which are also worth a tidy amount of culture with the aforementioned Knowledge Virtue. Unless you weren't referring to Monomyth.

Wonders to speed wonder production

See above.

Technologies that only seem to give a science building/improvement bonus

Refresh my memory. Which tech was that? I can't seem to find one that meets the stated requirements.

That's why I gave up on Knowledge Virtues.

Because you ignore parts of the game? That's certainly giving up on knowledge in general.

 

[Tarukito]

Multipliers Son.

So you got 2 hammers here and 3 hammers there and another 5 hammers. Then you add 10% hammers from Industry, 20% Magrails, 10% Utopian, suddenly those 10 hammers are worth 14.

Biggest multiplier is Trade routes, you aint going to get jack [snip] if you dont have high base stats in your boosting city but once you do those hammers are now multiplied by 3 trade routes and you are talking about a crapton of hammers thanks to a 3-4 hammer buildings. You are thinking to linear in a game with so much depth.

Moderator Action: Please don't evade the auto censor. Word snipped.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[sprang]

Multipliers Son.

So you got 2 hammers here and 3 hammers there and another 5 hammers. Then you add 10% hammers from Industry, 20% Magrails, 10% Utopian, suddenly those 10 hammers are worth 14.

Biggest multiplier is Trade routes, you aint going to get jack [snip] if you dont have high base stats in your boosting city but once you do those hammers are now multiplied by 3 trade routes and you are talking about a crapton of hammers thanks to a 3-4 hammer buildings. You are thinking to linear in a game with so much depth.

Moderator Action: Please don't evade the auto censor. Word snipped.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

a) I already admitted that the Recycler is one of the few exceptions. It repays nearly 3% per turn, repays its build price in 25 turns. Try examples with other buildings. Like... Biofactory. 290 nuts, gives +3 production. That's 1% return, repays build cost in 100 turns.

b) If you build the recycler in every city, it doesn't help internal trade routes because your city base production differentials are all the same.

c) A % bonus on production is nice, but that just means your Biofactory is now worth +3.3 nuts, instead of +3 nuts.

 

[Xenotitan]

Actually, the recycler does help internal trade routes if you put them in all your cities. Besides the regular +production there's also a +1 production on each internal trade route effect.

I think part of the problem is how quickly the games end. The games need to last longer so there's more time to get a return on investments.

It isn't only the spend x to get more x investments that are the problem, they're just easier to spot because it's easier to compare the value of hammers to hammers than hammers to culture. But a lot of the endgame buildings and techs have high costs and mediocre effects.

Also which buildings are worth it can be difficult to tell unless you know the building quest, i.e. autoplants.

I do think the -10% culture for virtues will eventually pay for itself, and definitely the -40% penalty per city if you get lots of cities unless you play on a massive map.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

a) I already admitted that the Recycler is one of the few exceptions. It repays nearly 3% per turn, repays its build price in 25 turns. Try examples with other buildings. Like... Biofactory. 290 nuts, gives +3 production. That's 1% return, repays build cost in 100 turns.

b) If you build the recycler in every city, it doesn't help internal trade routes because your city base production differentials are all the same.

c) A % bonus on production is nice, but that just means your Biofactory is now worth +3.3 nuts, instead of +3 nuts.

Then this is a balance issue, not a concept issue.
Personally I prefer to just buy production buildings and build everything else.

 

[AlaskA]

Many buildings/wonders/virtues in CivBE are NOT worth it because they are "Spend production to get more production" or "Spend CUlture to get a Virtue that Gives more Culture (or more virtues)". But you never get enough back to cover the cost of your investment, or not in a reasonable time.

Examples:
The two culture-boosting Knowledge virtues
Buildings/Wonders to boost production
Wonders to speed wonder production
Technologies that only seem to give a science building/improvement bonus



That's why I gave up on Knowledge Virtues.

Oh, i try follow this and replay my last map... instead of gaining at t113 lvl13 affinity and start building wincon wonder im stuck and my science\culture rate drop SO high, that im give up on turn 130.

So as for me, ur words is just a bad theorycrafting, that dont really works. Sorry.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Oh, i try follow this and replay my last map... instead of gaining at t113 lvl13 affinity and start building wincon wonder im stuck and my science\culture rate drop SO high, that im give up on turn 130.

So as for me, ur words is just a bad theorycrafting, that dont really works. Sorry.

Surely this is quick speed?

 

[AlaskA]

Surely this is quick speed?

No, it's standart \ standart \ appolo

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Oh. How did you made it? The best I've done is tier13 affinity t140-ish.

 

[Roxlimn]

sprang:

It's still the wrong question. Biofactory makes no sense under that paradigm. This doesn't mean that it's useless; it just means you can't understand what it's for unless you change your perspective.