Spies and Corporations - Utterly Useless?

[TheLadiesOgre]

I am actually curious about the mechanic of spies. Like, if there are spy mods out there please PM me, I'd love to see them (lil' new to modding Civ 4: BTS), but I was thinking about a mod where 1 is really valuable, and you can promote them to make them more successful or see other spies, and make it so they don't instantly just back to your capital when they're done.

Super Spies anyone? The standalone version hasn't been updated to 3.19 yet, but it is included in RevDCM (which is for 3.19). Anyone who feels that spies are "utterly useless" hasn't played with Super Spies

RevDCM, I highly recommend it, includes Super Spies (as I said in the quote) as well as a slew of other things to sate the warmonger within.

 

[bestbrian]

I'm new to the corp strategy. A certain Lemon Person (who shall remain nameless) highly reccommended them a while ago, but I played alot of games where I ended up with huge empires where I was going for a domination victory, and thus went straight into State Prop, so I never used them. Until now.

My current game the map ended up being pretty interesting. It was a PerfectWorld map where I was on the Eastern part of a continent, with Ottoman to the West and Persia to the Southwest. There was a godawful big desert in the middle of the continent that kept everyone separate. I land-grabbed everything I could up to the desert edge and squeezed in as many city's as I could (twelve, mostly coastal). The AIs, naturally, started filling in the map by founding crappy desert cities (lots of resources, but no food whatsoever). This is when I saw that for me to conquer my continent (I hate to share) Sushi would come in real handy to feed those crappy cities.

So as soon as Refrigeration came in, I launched my war, and took over my continent (cakewalk - France gave Hitler more agita). And into every city went a Sushi and Mining Exec. Wow! I knew this would work, but Wow, just Wow. Mining Inc is kicking in +28 Hammers into every city, and Sushi is pushing out something like +14 food. Wow. And the culture from Sushi really helped with the pacification (this is LoR mod, btw), especially since I had to vassal Ottoman and Persia as they both had founded cities on tundra islands in the middle of nowhere that were too much trouble to completely kill.

Now I'm huge, overpowered, and drowning in hammers. A few of those crappy desert cities are building Wealth to balance the books, while the one city that I forgot to put Mining Inc in just founded Civ Jewelers and is spamming execs overseas (even more cash). Pretty much all the Victory Conditions are open to me; I'll hit Cultural in just over a hundred turns, or so, and Space or Domination just require me to build stuff. Just got the UN up, so Diplo is possible, but not likely (El Cid is big and REALLY hates me).

All I can say is Wow, just frickin' Wow.

(Oh, and I just use Spies as passive city defenders, and sometimes as "black-clad Siege").

 

[Deckhand]

[*]Destroy all progress on a wonder (why doesn't the AI do this?)

they have done it to me.

 

[Spectator20]

Spies and Corporations are a lot more useful if you design your strategy around them. Like Wonders they are situational and best constructed for a specific reason.

 

[CarlGustaffa]

Check out TMIT's youtube movies. In the Saladin game, although not a spy game at all, he demonstrates how to make use of a spy to obtain a certain goal. It's high difficulty, constantly on the lowest score, and brings home a victory. Not a sword was swung... Not a rifle shot... Ever! The spies proved to be not needed in the end, but it was very valuable to hear the reasoning behind the strategy of producing them. It was amazing to watch this. In all my games (and I'm still only on noble , but large marathon), although I'm trying hard to maintain good relations, I'm always ending up in trouble with someone, or someone else is.

I guess most of my troubles come from not understanding the mechanics of the game well enough, or knowing about hidden penalties etc that seems to be a requirement for playing at these difficulties. "Doesn't DoW on pleased" - news to me. Ok, so I got the PDF eventually that shows much of this, but I haven't put it to active use yet.

Just watching these will teach you a lot of the mechanics going on. Be ready with your thumb on the spacebar though. He plays faaaast.

 

[Willem]

I can get much of the same intelligence as having a religion in the city.

Except you can no longer see into an enemy city with just religion, you need espionage. Having a religion only reduces the amount of EPs you need in order to accomplish this.

Some defenses against the gnat-like plinking of spies. And... That's it?

If you have your only Oil Well sabotaged enough times, you'd think that some defences against other spies would be worth it. Plus it's very advantageous to be able to see what your rivals are researching at the time.

But... does someone see my point of whether this is a "game changer" or just a bit of chrome?

No. I just see that you don't really understand how to work corporations.

 

[CarlGustaffa]

My only problem with spies are the way they tend to poison water of their own population if they loose a city with a garrisoned (I guess) spy unit in it. Who does that?

 

[bestsss]

@CarlGustaffa, pointless due to the anarchy time. Indeed you take a larvish discount (esp if the religion is present) however find a much better use of the spies and retake that city of yours. Would be such a pity to have poisoned the water and have the city back...

 

[ruff_hi]

The other benefit of running a high EP slider is that you can effectively kill an AIs tech ability. Sitting Bull seems to love spying and if you run lots of EPs against him, he will try and match you. Typically this means his research stalls.

Another huge benefit is watching what the others are teching - this can help you plan future trades or let you land a very nice tech from Liberalism.

I'm playing a pbem game at the moment and I spy bombed another human. I've had visibility into his civ for over 50 turns and been able to watch his army development (and match it). I've only recently used it offensively (stealing guilds for 318 EPs - a 1000 beaker tech!) but I do have lots of options open to me. One of the strongest is 'what I could do' with it. The other human and I are currently discussing trade terms ... "he sends me resources, I agree not to perform selected spy activities".

 

[CarlGustaffa]

Iirc, at my speed (marathon) I get anarchies from 4-8 rounds, but a poison water takes 15 turns to reach maximum effect of, and 15 turns to fully recover from. Being culture pressed, I think it would be very useful having some population producing culture.

But, alas. Poisened water you will recover from give it time. It's not like Saddams gassing of "own" population. They never recovered... Guess I have to live with it, frustrating as it may be

Edit: I love that idea. Visible spies for n rounds if you provide a wanted resource for n turns. Would work with both human and AI players.

 

[Isikien]

Corps have won me games on odd occassions. Mining Inc in particular turns your nation into an industrial powerhouse

Spies have a situational use. I mean really, what do you expect? They're meant to be used as support units, for example, in combination with invasions to incite rebellion in a city or poison the water. The problem is a lot of people are immediately put off by the high cost missions and the capture rate, but isnt spying all about being clever and sneaky?

 

[Willem]

Willem + Mining Inc. + Sushi + Dikes = Simply obscene production/food/GPP capability on the right map.

I don't know why everyone keeps going on about Sid's Sushi along with Mining Inc. Cereal Mills will give you a lot more food than Sid's does and goes much better with Mining inc. I use that combination in my interior cities and Sid's/Creative Constructions in my border ones. The main benefit of Sid's is the extra culture, not necessarily the food. If it's food you're after, then Cereal Mills is a much better corp to use.

 

[phungus420]

I don't know why everyone keeps going on about Sid's Sushi along with Mining Inc. Cereal Mills will give you a lot more food than Sid's does and goes much better with Mining inc. I use that combination in my interior cities and Sid's/Creative Constructions in my border ones. The main benefit of Sid's is the extra culture, not necessarily the food. If it's food you're after, then Cereal Mills is a much better corp to use.

Sid's Sushi produces much more food in the unmodded game. It is nearly always superior. In LoR they are more balanced, as Cereal Mills has been upped to +1 per resource, and the corp consumes an extra resource. But still, because of the prevalence of Sea Food, even with a buffed version, Sid's Sushi is usually the "better" choice in terms of aquired food. As stated in unmodded BtS, Sid's Sushi is always wayyy better then Cereal Mills, unless you play a map without oceans.

 

[Silu]

I don't know why everyone keeps going on about Sid's Sushi along with Mining Inc. Cereal Mills will give you a lot more food than Sid's does and goes much better with Mining inc. I use that combination in my interior cities and Sid's/Creative Constructions in my border ones. The main benefit of Sid's is the extra culture, not necessarily the food. If it's food you're after, then Cereal Mills is a much better corp to use.

I guess you play Big&Small with the dozens of Corn plots that come with it. The vast majority of map scripts has much more seafood (+ rice) than just grain. Incorporating both is a waste.

 

[UWHabs]

Sid's vs cereals is all dependant on the map. It's not very hard to get examples where one does much better than the other. I think the reason most people do sid's + mining is that sid's sushi comes as the first corp (usually) that you can get. So while maybe cereals will give you more overall, 10 food now might do you more good than 12 food later.

 

[mica8911]

I love spies. I love changing civics that matter like when trying to spread my religion change AI from theocracy or if its late and they may get cultural victory change from free speech. Stealing techs is great but definitely need a Great Spy to do so. Counter Espionage is great too if I'm getting hit a lot with spies.

I love the corporation idea. Haven't been able to use them much cause my games have been won or lost before they make a real difference. I think this will change though because I have recently moved up to Monarch and am finally getting the hang of it. Also, I think that corporations have much more of a use on Epic and Marathon.

 

[phungus420]

I love spies.

You should really try a RevolutionDCM based mod. Super Spies is a component in RevDCM, which gives spys ways to earn XP and get promotions, it makes it so you can get a 007 super agent

 

[Virtual Alex]

Does the AI ever change your civics?

I hope not that would be SO annoying.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sid's Sushi produces much more food in the unmodded game. It is nearly always superior. In LoR they are more balanced, as Cereal Mills has been upped to +1 per resource, and the corp consumes an extra resource. But still, because of the prevalence of Sea Food, even with a buffed version, Sid's Sushi is usually the "better" choice in terms of aquired food. As stated in unmodded BtS, Sid's Sushi is always wayyy better then Cereal Mills, unless you play a map without oceans.

Mills gives 1 food/resource in the base game, too. It is far better on land-heavy (especially exclusive) maps and at least worth a look on others. Obviously sushi is far superior for culture however. Also note that you have to pull fewer total resources in trades for the same food, which means you might get more lift from mills just via easier trade value.

Usually sushi is better, but not by the lead you're giving it.

 

[phungus420]

Mills gives 1 food/resource in the base game, too.

No it doesn't. It gives 3/4
See XML below.

		<CorporationInfo>
			<Type>CORPORATION_1</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CORPORATION_1</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CORPORATION_1_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
			<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
			<iSpreadFactor>200</iSpreadFactor>
			<iSpreadCost>50</iSpreadCost>
			<iMaintenance>100</iMaintenance>
			<PrereqBonuses>
				<BonusType>BONUS_WHEAT</BonusType>
				<BonusType>BONUS_CORN</BonusType>
				<BonusType>BONUS_RICE</BonusType>
			</PrereqBonuses>
			<HeadquarterCommerces>
				<iHeadquarterCommerce>4</iHeadquarterCommerce>
				<iHeadquarterCommerce>0</iHeadquarterCommerce>
				<iHeadquarterCommerce>0</iHeadquarterCommerce>
			</HeadquarterCommerces>
			<BonusProduced>NONE</BonusProduced>
			<CommercesProduced>
				<iCommerceProduced>0</iCommerceProduced>
			</CommercesProduced>
			<YieldsProduced>
				[B]<iYieldProduced>75</iYieldProduced>[/B]
			</YieldsProduced>
			<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/Corporation.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/Beyond_the_Sword_Atlas.dds,1,6</Button>
			<MovieFile>NONE</MovieFile>
			<MovieSound>NONE</MovieSound>
			<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_BANK</Sound>
		</CorporationInfo>

It is far better on land-heavy (especially exclusive) maps

Yes if you play a map without seafood resources, then Cereal Mills is better. In default BtS though, Sid's Sushi will net you about twice as much food on maps with oceans, like Pangea, or Continents, or Terra, etc.[/quote]

...and at least worth a look on others.

No it's not. It's only "worth a look" in obscure or map required situations, in which case Sid's Sushi is useless, so it's not "worth a look", it just is the common sense choice.

Obviously sushi is far superior for culture however. Also note that you have to pull fewer total resources in trades for the same food, which means you might get more lift from mills just via easier trade value.

Yeah, Sushi has the culture too, which it doesn't need to compete, it's still better with just the fact you get so much more food with sushi. But I supose if you want to play a hypothetical with trades, maybe you can make Cereal Mills better. But not really, as there are far fewer grain surpluses to trade, and less available to aquire. You can routinely get 5 fish resources on a standard continents map from trading, can't do that with grain.

Usually sushi is better, but not by the lead you're giving it.

Actually it's better. So sure, if you play without seafood, then Cereal Mills has a purpose. Otherwise, if you have the option, you should almost always go for Sushi, of course there are exceptions.