SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
Silly me, I never looked at the names of enemy units!
*Spoiler2* Gotm17- Full World Map+Explore
- Thread starter cracker
- Start date
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
Yeah, I only spotted Darius' barge. Since it was a Caravel I first thought it was a second UU for them too (since we had the Musketeer), but since all other Caravels were ordinary Caravels, I figured it probably was a starting Galley unit for them which they later had upgraded.
This also explains Egypt's expansion to other islands without them knowing mapmaking.
This also explains Egypt's expansion to other islands without them knowing mapmaking.
I think so too. That would explain how Cleo was able to build her city on the other island before I gave her Map Making.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
There is a simple explaination for Egypt's Island city, and it does not involve Cracker donating Egypt a free settler, or a free galley.
He did however, manipulate the map and strategically placed a goody hut (either accidently, or on purpose, but knowing Cracker he planned that) so that Egypt's culture would grab it upon it's 2nd border expansion (100 culture points).
Here is where it has been reported:
Free Size 4 city from Goody Hut?!?!
Getting cities from huts was supposedly designed into vanilla Civ3, but it was EXTREMELY rare to get one, that no one thought it was possible (you would get settlers, but not cities). Probably through some programming error, the only way (that I have seen proof of, anyways) in vanilla Civ3 to get a city from a hut is by claiming it with culture. On most maps, you would easily have a warrior or something pop the hut before your culture would grab it, so that is probably one reason no one ever saw it. The rule seems to be that the hut has to be 3 tiles from your city center (2 spaces in between, so you won't get a city with just 10 culture points).
However, with PTW, you can get cities by using a unit, but I prefer the settler, as sometimes the hut is in a poor location.
He did however, manipulate the map and strategically placed a goody hut (either accidently, or on purpose, but knowing Cracker he planned that) so that Egypt's culture would grab it upon it's 2nd border expansion (100 culture points).
Here is where it has been reported:
Free Size 4 city from Goody Hut?!?!
Getting cities from huts was supposedly designed into vanilla Civ3, but it was EXTREMELY rare to get one, that no one thought it was possible (you would get settlers, but not cities). Probably through some programming error, the only way (that I have seen proof of, anyways) in vanilla Civ3 to get a city from a hut is by claiming it with culture. On most maps, you would easily have a warrior or something pop the hut before your culture would grab it, so that is probably one reason no one ever saw it. The rule seems to be that the hut has to be 3 tiles from your city center (2 spaces in between, so you won't get a city with just 10 culture points).
However, with PTW, you can get cities by using a unit, but I prefer the settler, as sometimes the hut is in a poor location.
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
My main goal for the early game was to find the other civs as fast as possible. In 670 BC I found the Greek&Roman island with one of my suicide galleys (the GL helped A LOT with this, thanks to the 4 moves and safe seas). This was my first suicide galley, so I was really lucky. The Greeks knew Horseback riding, but were otherwise only moderately advanced. I had made a mistake here, playing too much deity, in that I researched Republic at 10% only. It turned out all AI civs always were way behind me in tech.
The galley brought a settler along, so I founded Rusaddir (in 610 bc) on the northernmost of the Greek islands.
It then took until 110 ad before a second suicide galley was succesful. This time I had headed west, and found the Persians&English. I traded their map, literature and all their 300 gold for currency. I never gave away my communications, even though I eventually sold my world map to everyone. I discovered Monotheism the next turn.
In 150 ad I found the American&German&Russian island. They had nothing to trade except for their maps. By this time I had lost 7 galleys (see pic for the red circles). I prepared for a war against egypt by researching Chivalry and building horsemen. I attacked in 320 ad, and finished the Egyptians in 590 ad. I decided to go for a conquest victory.
I built Copernicus in 640 ad and Magellans in 660 ad. Too bad that having both GL and Mag won't give your galleys 5 moves.
After this finding the other civs was easy.
I found the Babs&Zulu&Iroquois in 820 ad and the Chinese&Atzec in 900 ad. By this time I was 2 turns from Military Tradition, and the poor Atzecs&Chinese were still in the Ancient Ages, not having even discovered map making!
Now I had contact with everybody. I didn't particularly search for other islands for some time, so I only found some new guys in 1300 ad. However, this meant I missed one volcano (I think).
The english founded a city on the island to their south in 1280 ad. The first AI overseas contact was made in 1380 ad. It seems they didn't both much to go see the other civs, even though I had sold my maps to everybody. Their slow progress in this field can also partly be explained with anoher factor, which is outside the scope of this thread, however!
EDIT: removed names, fixed typos.
The galley brought a settler along, so I founded Rusaddir (in 610 bc) on the northernmost of the Greek islands.
It then took until 110 ad before a second suicide galley was succesful. This time I had headed west, and found the Persians&English. I traded their map, literature and all their 300 gold for currency. I never gave away my communications, even though I eventually sold my world map to everyone. I discovered Monotheism the next turn.
In 150 ad I found the American&German&Russian island. They had nothing to trade except for their maps. By this time I had lost 7 galleys (see pic for the red circles). I prepared for a war against egypt by researching Chivalry and building horsemen. I attacked in 320 ad, and finished the Egyptians in 590 ad. I decided to go for a conquest victory.
I built Copernicus in 640 ad and Magellans in 660 ad. Too bad that having both GL and Mag won't give your galleys 5 moves.
After this finding the other civs was easy.I found the Babs&Zulu&Iroquois in 820 ad and the Chinese&Atzec in 900 ad. By this time I was 2 turns from Military Tradition, and the poor Atzecs&Chinese were still in the Ancient Ages, not having even discovered map making!
Now I had contact with everybody. I didn't particularly search for other islands for some time, so I only found some new guys in 1300 ad. However, this meant I missed one volcano (I think).
The english founded a city on the island to their south in 1280 ad. The first AI overseas contact was made in 1380 ad. It seems they didn't both much to go see the other civs, even though I had sold my maps to everybody. Their slow progress in this field can also partly be explained with anoher factor, which is outside the scope of this thread, however!
EDIT: removed names, fixed typos.
I had absolutely no luck with suicide galleys, even with the Lighthouse, and sending them all in 'correct' directions (according to my later exploration) didn't help as they died before seeing anything promising. My GOTM will end up substantially behind other people's simply because it took until Navigation for me to find the AI- not long once I got it, but it did take me until then, self-researching, to do so. Having no help with research until then is going to substantially hurt my launch date/UN vote (my game is currently in late Industrial and I'm not sure which I will do). I detoured for Economics and Bach's, but otherwise I took the fast-tech path. Smith's was huge, especially with harbors in almost all of my cities, and more than made up for the gold spent on its research time later. Bach's was a hedge against the AI ganging up on me and me losing luxuries late-game, which is probably rare on Regent but still nice on my home continent.
My Forbidden Palace was built just to the west of Egypt, as that was the last possible productive point with a courthouse, probably later than others did as I did not get a leader from the Egyptian war, despite many elite victories.
England managed to build Leo's, and Liz and X-man were significantly more advanced than the other AI. It still took a while for them to find each other, even with me gifting tech at one point to speed the tech rate up.
My Forbidden Palace was built just to the west of Egypt, as that was the last possible productive point with a courthouse, probably later than others did as I did not get a leader from the Egyptian war, despite many elite victories.
England managed to build Leo's, and Liz and X-man were significantly more advanced than the other AI. It still took a while for them to find each other, even with me gifting tech at one point to speed the tech rate up.
The good news was that I didn't lose any suicide galleys, not even one.
The bad news was that I didn't send any suicide galleys and I didn't leave my home island until after I discovered Navigation. Based on what I read so far, I don't think those suicide galleys benefit much. In this game, the AIs are all so far behide in tech; there isn't much to trade with them. However, I do think the spaceship people (who like to give away techs as free gifts) will do well in this type of map.
The bad news was that I didn't send any suicide galleys and I didn't leave my home island until after I discovered Navigation. Based on what I read so far, I don't think those suicide galleys benefit much. In this game, the AIs are all so far behide in tech; there isn't much to trade with them. However, I do think the spaceship people (who like to give away techs as free gifts) will do well in this type of map.pterrok
Warlord
I was fighting the Greeks and came up against Alexander's Ragtime Band! (I beat them soundly!<g>)
This game was a trial for me. I managed to find Greece and Rome via suicide galley but everything else sank to the bottom of the sea...There was one small gap where I could found a city on the north of the little Greek island, so I settled there. After ferrying over some troops I started the war on the Greeks but had to stop short of taking their last 3 core cities which were at size 12...
I had an internal conflict over whether to use 'transfers at sea' to move units quickly; I DID break my own code and make a couple of transfers, but not many (I'm a LITTLE pregnant? <g>) and I got kind of annoyed at myself for being weak those few times. But at least I never did set-up an entire string of ships stationed to pass the wave of units along...
What I had PLANNED to do and what actually happened are two different things--most of the period for this spoiler was spent building infrastructure and getting techs. When I did find everyone else I was also very far ahead of them all--but I had no way to get forces to take them out quickly. I guess I should have had ALL of my costal cities build ships for a couple of turns and things would have been a lot different!
I kind of felt that this map was TOO contrived. I know WHY it had to be laid out like it was (to keep the AI from finding each other) but it was just not my cup of tea.
This game was a trial for me. I managed to find Greece and Rome via suicide galley but everything else sank to the bottom of the sea...There was one small gap where I could found a city on the north of the little Greek island, so I settled there. After ferrying over some troops I started the war on the Greeks but had to stop short of taking their last 3 core cities which were at size 12...
I had an internal conflict over whether to use 'transfers at sea' to move units quickly; I DID break my own code and make a couple of transfers, but not many (I'm a LITTLE pregnant? <g>) and I got kind of annoyed at myself for being weak those few times. But at least I never did set-up an entire string of ships stationed to pass the wave of units along...
What I had PLANNED to do and what actually happened are two different things--most of the period for this spoiler was spent building infrastructure and getting techs. When I did find everyone else I was also very far ahead of them all--but I had no way to get forces to take them out quickly. I guess I should have had ALL of my costal cities build ships for a couple of turns and things would have been a lot different!
I kind of felt that this map was TOO contrived. I know WHY it had to be laid out like it was (to keep the AI from finding each other) but it was just not my cup of tea.
BoBtheBUILDER
Bonded and Certified
I tried suicide galleys but it didn't pay off. I had not one survived. Not one single one survived. I beelined for the Great Lighthouse based on the info in the scope assuming that trade would be a major part of the game given the background of Carthage. I was disappointed to find that I got almost zero benefit from the lighthouse.
I was the first civ to navigation though too, and I managed to complete Magellans too, so that helped. The only civ that was close on tech was Rome, and the only civ close in points was the Zulu, who pretty much wiped out the Iros. The Americans wiped out the Germans and took a good bite out of the Russians as well. Persian and England had clearly tangled in the past as there were Persian cities with English names.
Outside of technical issues, I feel my response to the scope of the game was the worst part of this game. I am doing well in the context of the game but I am sure that I'm performing poorly compared to other players. The order of discovery was:
Persia; England; Greece; Rome; America; Germany; Russia; Aztec; China; Babylon; Zulu (the Iros were dead before I left the home isle).
After thinking that I would live in peaceful existance with the Egyptians I decided to take it to them thinking 1) I needed more production power and wouldn't get it because all the avaialable land outside of my little spere would be a) too far away and b) settled by other civs (right on both counts there.... Rome got to the little whale island before me) and 2) Despite my best BoBtheBUILDER efforts, Egypt's culture was kicking my butt. They had founded only one city on the seahorse island, but it was exerting pressure on four of my cities and my wine city was culture dueling with the Egyptian mainland (and losing).
It turned out to be a pretty easy battle (knights and catapults vs spearmen) and in that situation the lighthouse helped me ferry troops more quickly. That's pretty much all I have to report right now. If I can churn out enough shields I may go for space race, otherwise it's gonna be a diplomatic victory.
BoB
I was the first civ to navigation though too, and I managed to complete Magellans too, so that helped. The only civ that was close on tech was Rome, and the only civ close in points was the Zulu, who pretty much wiped out the Iros. The Americans wiped out the Germans and took a good bite out of the Russians as well. Persian and England had clearly tangled in the past as there were Persian cities with English names.
Outside of technical issues, I feel my response to the scope of the game was the worst part of this game. I am doing well in the context of the game but I am sure that I'm performing poorly compared to other players.
The order of discovery was:Persia; England; Greece; Rome; America; Germany; Russia; Aztec; China; Babylon; Zulu (the Iros were dead before I left the home isle).
After thinking that I would live in peaceful existance with the Egyptians I decided to take it to them thinking 1) I needed more production power and wouldn't get it because all the avaialable land outside of my little spere would be a) too far away and b) settled by other civs (right on both counts there.... Rome got to the little whale island before me) and 2) Despite my best BoBtheBUILDER efforts, Egypt's culture was kicking my butt. They had founded only one city on the seahorse island, but it was exerting pressure on four of my cities and my wine city was culture dueling with the Egyptian mainland (and losing).
It turned out to be a pretty easy battle (knights and catapults vs spearmen) and in that situation the lighthouse helped me ferry troops more quickly. That's pretty much all I have to report right now. If I can churn out enough shields I may go for space race, otherwise it's gonna be a diplomatic victory.
BoB
jeffelammar
Space for rent
I also discovered that nobody had colonized the inner lagoon between Russia/Germany/America. I even took a screen shot to use to ask if anyone else saw that, but it is from the modern era so I won't post it now. Strange that they would completely skip what looks like some ideal real-estate.
I find it strange to hear people state that they got no benifit out of the Great Lighthouse. I don't know about the rest of you, but I had severe production problems in all of my cities. It wasn't till a conquered Persia (a bit after the scope of this thread) that I finally got cities producing shields fast. This meant that there was a window of about 35 turns before I would have had Magellen's. Those 35 turns were the ones when I was sending my galleys out to explore the world. Ignoring all the bonus time saved in exploring the home archipeligo, this was a huge benifit from the Lighthouse.
In my game Persia attacked me, so I concentrated on taking out Persia (finally when I got Cavalry I was able to do so). This was unfortunate for a couple reasons that I won't be able to discuss until the Industrial Age thread.
I find it strange to hear people state that they got no benifit out of the Great Lighthouse. I don't know about the rest of you, but I had severe production problems in all of my cities. It wasn't till a conquered Persia (a bit after the scope of this thread) that I finally got cities producing shields fast. This meant that there was a window of about 35 turns before I would have had Magellen's. Those 35 turns were the ones when I was sending my galleys out to explore the world. Ignoring all the bonus time saved in exploring the home archipeligo, this was a huge benifit from the Lighthouse.
In my game Persia attacked me, so I concentrated on taking out Persia (finally when I got Cavalry I was able to do so). This was unfortunate for a couple reasons that I won't be able to discuss until the Industrial Age thread.
BoBtheBUILDER
Bonded and Certified
When I say I received no benefit from the lighthouse it was because I "had" no world to explore. I lost seven or eight galleys to the treachourous seas on their first turn in the ocean. By that time I figured someone was trying to tell me something so I laid off the suicide galleys and focused on eliminating Egypt. Imagine my relief when I discovered that Cleo was sitting on the only source of saltpeter!
BoB
BoB
Oddible
signal / noise > 1
As it turns out, Persia and England had so evenly divided their islands that they just spent the entire time they were alone researcing opposite techs so that they were so far beyond me that I've still not caught up! I discovered every other group of islands first and traded communication like crazy and ended up getting ahead of nearly everyone else.
However, for some reason, recently everyone passed me again - like all of a sudden England or Persia just gave away a bunch of techs?!?
Actually nearly ready to bail on this game - dunno how I should do it - this keeps happening to me in GOTMs - the game gets to a point where its not really fun anymore and I just ditch. Probably this thread is a little too early to discuss why...
Submit the retirment loss???
However, for some reason, recently everyone passed me again - like all of a sudden England or Persia just gave away a bunch of techs?!?
Actually nearly ready to bail on this game - dunno how I should do it - this keeps happening to me in GOTMs - the game gets to a point where its not really fun anymore and I just ditch. Probably this thread is a little too early to discuss why...
Submit the retirment loss???
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Oddible,
I encourage you to look deep and find the common ground in your game that lets you get enjoyment from the bigger picture aspects of having so many other players play the same game and be able to share the experience with you.
In the past two months, many of your peers have given you the great gift of writing up their timelines adn sharing 1000bc timelines to help you become a better player even though you have not been submitting your games to the QSC or the big game to facilitate this comparison.
The bar will not go much lower than a regent game in a map situation where it is virtually impossible for you to get killed or lose so the question becomes, how can you look for the support that you need to play a reasable game that will open the door to what this game is really about?
I am going to strongly suggest that you find the cure to what ails you in an introspective look at your Gotm15 and Gotm16 games compared to your peers in the QSC games.
Good luck,
cracker
I encourage you to look deep and find the common ground in your game that lets you get enjoyment from the bigger picture aspects of having so many other players play the same game and be able to share the experience with you.
In the past two months, many of your peers have given you the great gift of writing up their timelines adn sharing 1000bc timelines to help you become a better player even though you have not been submitting your games to the QSC or the big game to facilitate this comparison.
The bar will not go much lower than a regent game in a map situation where it is virtually impossible for you to get killed or lose so the question becomes, how can you look for the support that you need to play a reasable game that will open the door to what this game is really about?
I am going to strongly suggest that you find the cure to what ails you in an introspective look at your Gotm15 and Gotm16 games compared to your peers in the QSC games.
Good luck,
cracker
Greg Loader
Warlord
When I compared all the continents, I decided that I wanted to take over Russia/Germany/America. Boston was Centrally Located - an Ideal spot for a FP, though the inner islands weren't settled.
{snip}
Greg
Greg - we want to make a major effort not to discuss any aspect of the Industrial Age because this would be discourteous to other players who are not yet to that point in their games - cracker
{snip}
Greg
Greg - we want to make a major effort not to discuss any aspect of the Industrial Age because this would be discourteous to other players who are not yet to that point in their games - cracker
Txurce
Deity
I researched navigation in 810, met the Greeks in 850, and the others followed suit within a century or so. None of the civs were even close in tech, but I almost immediately started to make lucrative tech-for-gpt or spices deals.
My map looked similar to most, with the two-civ groupings divided evenly, and Germany and the Iroquois smaller than their neighbors. There had been no conquests in any of the smaller groupings, while the Zulu had made some headway on their landmass. China and the Aztecs were by far the most backward, with Persia and England the most advanced. (I replayed my game up to 1000AD, and the Sino-Aztec pair was again far and away the most backward, while Babylon had a slight tech lead over the others.) Interestingly, there seemed to be no technological advantage to being on a three-civ landmass.
I built the Great Lighthouse in 370BC, but chose not to pursue the suicide galley tactic, as I assumed I'd be ahead in tech given regent level, and the other civs wouldn't have enough gold early on to make selling tech worthwhile. My reasoning was confirmed in my replay of this game: I tried a suicide run for experimental purposes, reached Greece with my first galley in 270BC, and found myself already ahead in tech.
Given this likelihood, and the number of galleys lost in most attempts to establish contact, do others think suicide runs are a worthwhile effort in this game... or just something to do for fun?
My map looked similar to most, with the two-civ groupings divided evenly, and Germany and the Iroquois smaller than their neighbors. There had been no conquests in any of the smaller groupings, while the Zulu had made some headway on their landmass. China and the Aztecs were by far the most backward, with Persia and England the most advanced. (I replayed my game up to 1000AD, and the Sino-Aztec pair was again far and away the most backward, while Babylon had a slight tech lead over the others.) Interestingly, there seemed to be no technological advantage to being on a three-civ landmass.
I built the Great Lighthouse in 370BC, but chose not to pursue the suicide galley tactic, as I assumed I'd be ahead in tech given regent level, and the other civs wouldn't have enough gold early on to make selling tech worthwhile. My reasoning was confirmed in my replay of this game: I tried a suicide run for experimental purposes, reached Greece with my first galley in 270BC, and found myself already ahead in tech.
Given this likelihood, and the number of galleys lost in most attempts to establish contact, do others think suicide runs are a worthwhile effort in this game... or just something to do for fun?
I'd call them potentially powerful; they just didn't happen to be on this map. If all the other civs had been in contact, they'd likely have been ahead in tech, even on Regent, so I felt I had to make the attempt. I lost 2 or 3 before finding Greece, then tried again with another couple after Egypt was dead, but by that time navigation wasn't far away, so I gave up. I also had a feeling after seeing the starting islands and the Greek/Roman territory that the other civs would *not* be all together.
Renata
Renata
well I managed to get contact almost completely by accident. all of a sudden I was contacted by england (dont remember what year). I had wiped out egypt and was digging in for a solid piece of building because I was still 3 or 4 techs away from being able to safely cross ocean squares. My golden age was long gone (UU caused it in the first eqytian war ~ 1000 bc or thereabaouts) and I figured that, being regent, I had a fairly good chance of researching on my own. So I started putting lib/univ in every city where it made sense and that didn't already have them from the GA.
I was pretty dispicible during the egyptian campaigns so I pretty much knew I had to wipe them out before either of us made contact with the rest of the world or suffer a serious reputation hit. I had built my forbidden palace in an old egyptian city on the island just west of the egyptian home island which seemed to cover my corruption and waste pretty well throughout the whole starting archipelago.
So I get contacted by england and proceed to do my usual "leapfrog" contact trading: buy one contact from england, contact that civ, buy one from them, contact new civ, buy one from them ... ad infinitum. It took me a few turns to get them all, but once I had everyone, I finnally bought the world map. no wonder I lost all those galleys!!! we were totally separated from everyone else!
and that's all for now
lateralis
I was pretty dispicible during the egyptian campaigns so I pretty much knew I had to wipe them out before either of us made contact with the rest of the world or suffer a serious reputation hit. I had built my forbidden palace in an old egyptian city on the island just west of the egyptian home island which seemed to cover my corruption and waste pretty well throughout the whole starting archipelago.
So I get contacted by england and proceed to do my usual "leapfrog" contact trading: buy one contact from england, contact that civ, buy one from them, contact new civ, buy one from them ... ad infinitum. It took me a few turns to get them all, but once I had everyone, I finnally bought the world map. no wonder I lost all those galleys!!! we were totally separated from everyone else!
and that's all for now
lateralis
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
On this map it might work well to not do the suicide runs, just beeline for Navigation and then explore. I sank about 400 shields of production. I did get a bit of cash and a good tech (Monotheism) as a result of making early contact, so those shields weren't wasted. But they could also have done a lot of good toward infrastructure.
I think even the value of the Lighthouse is debatable on this one. (If not making suicide runs - including suicide runs Lighthouse seems almost certainly a good thing.) It does connect another luxury early on and does increase ship movement, I'm not sure how that trades off against its production cost.
Having said all that, I think the suicide runs are fun, I like playing it that way. And as Renata says, there was a potential that that they'd be more important, I'd find it hard to ignore that and hope for the best at home...
Singularity
Infinite Density
Suicide runs are fun, but like my 300+ shields lost and seeing coastlines from two opposite sides on a new continent without getting contacs is extremely frustrating, besides there are more gains to be benefited from a regent game with plenty of space to expand to and improve - and a leap in tech advantage compared to AI tech speed at regent. So my verdict must be that sacrificing galleis is defintly not worth it compared to converting the lost shields to scientific/commercial improvement in the early game.
BTW, I've cleared 40+ grasstiles now - and not spotted a single bonustile. That's the only annoying part so far for me at this map. Cracker, any particular reason for not using the random bonus grasstiles that come when you use the map editor?
BTW, I've cleared 40+ grasstiles now - and not spotted a single bonustile. That's the only annoying part so far for me at this map. Cracker, any particular reason for not using the random bonus grasstiles that come when you use the map editor?
