*Spoiler3* Gotm17-Carthage OIL+RUBBER

[Renata]

It is just not my day. I had six paragraphs typed into this screen then hit some button or other with the edge of my palm and poof it's all gone. Back later, maybe. My game is also crashing, and I don't know if I can finish.

Renata

 

[Shillen]

Well I chose to go for a conquest victory. I seem to have gotten off to a really slow start compared to Yndy though. I had only conquered Egypt and America before modern times. Everyone else came later. America turned out to be a great first conquest though because I had the same iron works city Singularity had. I would use my next leader (which didn't come for a while) to move my palace there. It was just a perfect location, nice land, largest continent in the game, very centralized. I also built the Hoover Dam there to make it even better. Anyway I had just conquered America when I got steam power and I noticed the lack of coal on my home continent, but I had captured some so it was all good.

I declared war on America in 1375 and destroyed them in 1470. I would have gone straight after Germany next but I had a lot of bad luck with America. One city flipped with 5 cavalry in it, and just in general my cavalry were losing more than they should have to their pikemen. I would discover tanks before declaring war on Germany in 1625. In 1645 Babylon unloads some troops on ex-American lands, I tell them to leave and they declare war. In 1660 AD the Zulus follow suit and drop troops of their own off. I tell them to leave and they agree, but they attack me anyway. This would be the start of a cascading effect. A little while later I was at war with every other civ in the game, but I was so much more advanced, and had so much more territory I could easily fight off everyone at once.

Here's my minimap in 1650 AD, just before I entered the Modern Age:

It looks like I control most of the American continent at this point but really half of that is Russia. It was really annoying that Russia had nearly the same color as us. I noticed in PTW that problem didn't exist.

I have to echo Moonsinger's concerns about the scoring. I, too, would have scored much higher if I had launched my space ship instead of achieving conquest. I don't think it's fair to let people use the calculator before they finish the game because they can use it to determine which victory will give them the highest score. I also think the dates for domination and conquest in this game are far too early. It took a great deal of time to ship troops between the islands. I'd say Yndy will probably be one of the fastest to get domination and like he said he could have gotten a better score with space race or diplomatic.

On the Port of Entry's I built them all in ex-Egyptian lands near my Forbidden Palace as soon as I was able to. I had no trouble with harbors so I built all 4 at once. I made sure to build libraries, universities, banks, stock exchanges, etc in these cities as well. I built one more stock exchange so I could get Wall Street. I didn't really pay attention to how much the Port of Entry's were helping me though. Looking back at my saves they look quite good. Then again on a map like this, I could have built a lot more commercial docks since a majority of my cities were coastal. This would have used up more production though. Hard to say if they even out or not. I'm not disappointed with the PoE's.

 

[flexo]

Coal was the problem, borrowing this map from Singularity I can say (and show) that I took my coal from the odd cyan colored island ot the russia-america-german island. Rushed a harbour, a temple and a cathedral (yes I was afraid of a culture flip!).

 

[Borealis]

@flexo: I took that same city, in the only offensive action I took in the entire game- I decided to play as Hannibaline Moneybags, and only had to take action when I discovered no coal at all on the Carthagnian and formerly Egyptian lands. I rushed a temple asap and added a courthouse, which brought it into productivity- with a police station and factory, it wasn't a bad city, even that far away from my Forbidden Palace.

General update: I ended up with a SS victory and could have had a diplomatic one as well, but I can only talk about the experiences I had during the Industrial Age here. Other than Caesar choosing unwisely and suiciding legions against my riflemen, the AI didn't attack me during this period, and Rome paid for its impundence by having the entire world gang up on it. The AI almost caught up at the beginning of the Industrial Age by diversifying research, but the trade embargoes I made sure to get along with the military alliances against Rome put Rome, the tech leader, in a bad position. X-man ended up becoming #2 after the war, but was hobbled for a while by expensive gpt payments to Alex and Liz. Cathy grabbed Medicine with her free tech, which helped the AI, but they never managed to break the stranglehold I had on the tech lead. I kept them just far enough behind to ensure a 4-turn rate, and coasted through the later period on superior infrastructure. Commercial trait + good FP location + Smith's and the improvements it affects = $$$$$$$$. I didn't build as many libraries and universities as fast as I have in past games, and I didn't need to.

I wish I'd managed to have a successful suicide galley, as I didn't find any AI off the archipelago until 930 AD. I located the last of the AI in 1100 AD, and found cracker and Thunderfall in 1180 AD. I settled the tiny island but not the other two- Liz and X-man went straight for Navigation, and immediately beelined for them. Caesar ended up with one ultracorrupt city near Mt. Faka.

This is the second GOTM I've actually finished, and although I probably won't be very far up in the final rankings due to my late launch date for Regent, it's nice to have a victory, as well as a less nerve-wracking game than GOTM14.

 

[flexo]

@Borealis
I took a few more offensive actions, I took the city just below it on that island cause it had a luxury I didn't have. Then I took a city on the small island below persia/england.

PLus in the end I had a my transport full off marines just take the Iroquis capital just for fun ... one less AI to pay attention to in the game.

Don't fell to bad. My game *sucked* in speed, I was happily thinking culture win (100.000) but then I noticed that the AI:s where well on the way building Space ships. I had to steal, spy and prebuild for a space launch in the late 1900's.

 

[zagnut]

Hoover Dam is great to get in most games. However, in this one I bypassed it because it only helps on the continent where it is built and our "continents" were very small on this map. I saved my shields for the UN.

 

[flexo]

guess it depends on how many cities you managed to sqeeze in on the island. Wasn't it Yndy that sqeezed in 14 of them on the starting island? I only managed half of that.

 

[Borealis]

I had 9 cities on the starting island, and only one ended up being cramped in the end, but it still produced good trade output due to the beauteous gold mines nearby. Most of my cities were positioned to grab the harbor tiles, which paid off immensely later on (see below on commerical improvements).

I forgot to address the issue of Stock Exchanges and Wall Street specifically, but in my game I was already rolling in money by the time they came around due to Smith's and many, many harbor cities. I spent money to make money, rushing markets and harbors whenever possible, and it paid off later. Wall Street helped me rush buildings more effectively, and deficit spend occasionally to get a tech in 4 turns, and Stock Exchanges were an added bonus. Commercial Docks helped stop the tech pace from slowing down in late Industrial as it usually does; Radio took 6 turns but with the CDs built Flight and Motorized Transp. took 4 with a gpt surplus.

As far as 'what you did to obtain resources,' aside from the Egyptian war, after making contact with the Aztecs and Chinese, I built 4 horses, upgraded them to cav, loaded them into a galleon, and took the aforementioned American island city guarded by spearmen. I built maybe 3-4 cav on my home island to dispose of annoying legion landings, but otherwise all my troops were defensive. For luxuries I usually traded 2-for-1 or tech for luxuries, and usually had all or all but 1 from Sanitation on.

 

[tao]

When I discovered steam, I put the following entry in my log:

1170 steam, but no coal; have to conquer;
Aztecs and China have coal, but nothing else and are far away
Chinese and Russian coal is not easily to get from the coast
Greece will it be, as it is close, has coal and spices

Since I was running on borderline military, I had to build riflemen and cannons. The spice deal and ROP with Greece expired in 1290, which was a suitable invasion date.

1290 declaring war, making two concurrent landings (yellow): 3 rifle, 1 knight on the hill near Viroconium, 4 cannon, 1 elite knight, 7 rifles on the mountain next to Sparta. Goal was to conquer Sparta(coal), Viroconium(spices) and raze Athens.

1290 elite knight produces GL Hamilcar, we capture Sparta, Hamilcar b army, army wins allowing us to build heroic epic. We also capture Viroconium.

Disaster strikes next: Sparta flips, taking our rifle army, knight, 2 cannons. And Rome declares war on us. All chances of conquering Sparta and destroying Athens are gone.
Make peace with Greece and form alliance with them vs. Rome. New plan is to build city NW of Delphi (didn't notice this coal before). Build settler, escort, ship over seas.

1345 Carthago Nova is founded (red) and worker starts to build road to coal
1360 replaceable parts; had hurried barracks in Viroconium; upgrade to infantry/artillery
1375 coal connected but Greece declares war again thus blocking our sea route for the coal
1385 Hispalis captured from Rome (green); finally railroading also get gems
1435 land next to Delphi (blue)
1440 Delphi captured; Greece gives military tradition, music theory for peace
1450 refining; have oil on east-most former Egyptian island, and soon (?) near Hispalis (pink, will hurry library).

The map shows the battle area.

 

[drewshark]

It seems like I have really missed the boat. I appear to be the only one who did not secure a source of coal. Has anyone else just forgone the coal and lived without railroads besides myself? I might be the only civ in history to win without coal. Probably a big mistake production and gold wise, but at least I will win the "most peaceful victorious" award. Oh, I forgot, that award doesn't exist .

 

[Zwingli]

Although I am nearly out of the Industrial age, I have yet to build a Port of Entry and only one Stock Exchange. Since the goal for this one is space race, I built mostly low level commerce improvement (markets) and science infrastructure at the expense of a millitary. If the "coal caper" had succeeded, I would have had the production capacity to produce higher level commerce improvements in the industrial age. The other civs were able to provide funding for my research, and neoCarthage rewarded them with cheap technology and generous luxury deals (to "goose" their economies a bit).

I definitely missed the early WallStreet wonder from regular Civ3, but it is probably more balanced in the industrial age since the AI seems to never keep 1000 gold in its coffers. Now, I may not have the production capacity to build WallStreet before blastoff.

Originally posted by cracker

Ports of Entry are small wonders that increase the uncorrupted tax output in selected coastal cities by 50%. Each civilization only has access to build 4 of these Ports of Entry and they require a progressively increasing number of harbors in your empire. You will need 2, 5, 8, and 12 harbors respectively to enable the Ports of Entry. Technically you could build all 4 of these features in the same coastal city, but this exploit is not allowed for the human player and can be detected in the game replay. [/B]

If I read the description correctly, the Port of Entrys will not directly help (maximum) research the way Commercial Docks can as they are another +50% tax structure. If this is truly the case, then I would be better off not building them for a fast space race. Perhaps they should be mini Colossuses which are more expensive/fewer in number than the current implementation, or half of them could be +50% science structures. In any case, it is probably close enough and will not make much of a difference in the final launch date.


Edit: Added quote

 

[Shillen]

Oops I guess I misread the description of the PoE's. I actually thought they were mini-Colossus. They sound pretty weak if all they do is increase your tax output, without directly affecting science the way commercial docks do. The PoE's probably should increase both science and tax output by 50% to balance them with commercial docks. Maybe increase the shield cost by 50% from what they are now.

 

[Aeson]

Just to let you all know, the GOTM17 calculator suffers from the same problem as the GOTM16 calculator... it's using GOTM15's max score, not the correct one posted in the table.

I've fixed the GOTM17 calculator, but until Cracker uploads the new version you can multiply your score (the one it gives after you input the game info) by 15485 and then divide by 9410 to get the proper score.

... having technical difficulties (with my mind)...

{uploading it now - cracker}

 

[cracker]

FYI, for everone's benefit, the calculator mismatch/snafu really appears to have been my fault in how I uploaded the original files received from Aeson. I did not pick up on the coefficient changes in the calculator script as well as in the text that you see displayed on the webpage. SO the displayed page looked correct but the internal guts where not updated properly. I have now been trained.

 

[haegint]

Man, Indy! You have cavalry by the year 700!?!? What am I doing here then?? Congrats, also on your brilliant move to gain a overseas city by negotiation only. I'm speechless! I never thought such was even possible! :worshp:

Well, my game is proceeding much more unspectacularly. But in case anybody cares:

I got a semi-lucky break to my coal. When I discovered steam power, I had 2 ships en route to the barbarian island in a second attempt to liberate cracker after trying unsuccessfully earlier.

Nobody could trade me coal then because no other civ had yet discovered Steam Power. I disliked the idea to invade very far islands like Aztecs or so, simply because of the distance and the many turns involved. But I needed some military action as I noted that no civ was really rich in coal, all having a maximum one or two sources. Some would not have it at all, like Persia or England.

Acutally, the whole map is not very rich in resources I find.

Anyway, I had these ships under way on the cracker mission and they were just off to the north of the Iroquois continent where I saw the same relatively convenient coal spot that Megalou described in his game.

In my game, the war between Zulu and Iro's has left borders in such a way that this coal was in neutral territory and yet unclaimed which fitted my peaceful approach in this game.

I made ROP's with Babylon, Zulu and Iro and could make a landing there within two turns. Although in neutral territory, the the Iro's were still upset with me and declared war. Maybe it was because my town was built on a tile just at their border.

It was a tight affair initially. I had two defending knights only. I rushed Walls and a Rifleman and this clinched it as the AI brought on mostly single units that were technically behind me, defending out of a walled town in the hills.

In addition I brought Babylon and Zulu in an alliance with me. So Iro's soon abandoned their efforts on me and started to hit Zulu and Baby's. Stupidly I made peace with Iro before the alliances ended. That brought down Baby's to Polite from Gracious and Zulu to Cautious from Polite.

Afterwards I was sorry for that, cause I really was in no need to make peace. So Iro and I had peace now, when they AGAIN declared war just some 5 or 10 turns later!! They probably discovered Steam Power themselves now and wanted coal as badly as me. This time I got more angry and decided to go for the nearby Furs that I was only able to trade for with America at that point in the game. I got Ulundi and Intombe a few turns later without any hard work (Iro's must have taken these cities from the Zulu before I discovered this continent).

I would like to include a screenshot, but I'm lacking the software. Maybe I find some free stuff later.

I did not have a problem securing oil and rubber. Rubber was on the home island and elsewhere in former Egypt, and there is one oil out in the most-eastern of my Egyptian provinces.

Sometimes later in the industrial age, my workers found a second source of coal in one of the southern mountains on the home starting island. Oh, bye the way: Are these occurrences random, or can cracker set them up beforehand as well?

My hope is to win the first UN vote to finish the game. Towards the end of the Ind. Age where I am now, I'm at war with Rome and America. As always so far in this game, THEY declared war on ME. In fact, I was on Polite with America when they - schwupps! - chose to sneak-attack me. I find this AI tactics completely loughable. I mean, they make it really easy on you sometimes. I should probably invade their continent, but I'm reluctant: So much effort. Maybe I'll do it anyway.

What I really want to do still in this game is liberate cracker from barbarian slavery. I need to 'cus, Moonsinger, you did not complete our holy mission

Winning I will eventually, one way or the other. Right now I'm in 1635 and one turn away from flight then another 4 to Tanks and over to Modern Times, going after Fission first. I guess Yndy is going ROFLHAO now Ah well, for my standards it's a good game.

 

[Aeson]

There were a few other problems with the GOTM17 calculator. Thanks to SirPleb I think we've got them all straightened out. Waiting on the upload still, so until Cracker gives the signal just ignore anything the calculator says.

Sorry for the trouble.

{the updated calculator is now in place - cracker}

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Yndy,

Congratulation on talking Knossos at 10BC (without firing a single shot). After rushing the barracks and rushing new spearman in every 2 turns, by the time you discover navigation, those spearmans would become Musketeers. Wow, you would have an army of Musketeers right in the Roman and Greek backyard within 20 turns or so. I'm looking toward to hear about the rest of your story.

My original plan was to rush a harbour and rush a galley every turn to send it searching other archipelagos. But it turned out that Greece started to culture push my little town. So I rushed a temple and started rushing warriors to counter flip attempts (No i did not rush a barrack later. By the time I felt safe (10 warriors) I almost had navigation so I abandoned the inital plan. But All those warriors were upgraded to Swordsmen and were a distraction from the real invasion force. Greece landed several Archers and Swords near Knososs and heavy fighting took place. Finally I got the entire island but then Rome sneak attacked me and took Knossos itslef. More fights but 3 elite swors survived after and one of them gave me the second and last leader.

Edit: I just arrived at the office for some week-end work and since I don’t really feel like working I’ll start answering some questions:

Originally posted by flexo
guess it depends on how many cities you managed to sqeeze in on the island. Wasn't it Yndy that sqeezed in 14 of them on the starting island? I only managed half of that.

That move had its costs too. I abandoned three of the those cities to help the other 11 and when I got Industrialisation I built factories only in 7 cities (the others were mostly working coast/sea tiles without production. I built Hoover’s on that continent though, for lack of a better location, and the results were that two cities had 50-60 spt while the others were 30-50 spt. In addition three of those cities were already on rivers so they could have built their own hydro plants. So it was not worth the effort in my game.

originally posted by haegint
Sometimes later in the industrial age, my workers found a second source of coal in one of the southern mountains on the home starting island. Oh, bye the way: Are these occurrences random, or can cracker set them up beforehand as well? [/B]

No haegint, that is a random event which can affect the game. The only way that cracker can interfere in this is to make additional coal deposits that could be made available later in the game as you discover some other tech. Or maybe more ???

 

[Singularity]

I'm also at work and have some time to kill Here is my first post in this thread.

I started my game going for a fairly dense citybuild. The lack of land on my archipelago made this a logical choice to enhance my production of early era units.

As the game progresses there will be some penalties for this style as Yndy commented above. Commercial docks are great improvements, but need two things - a good % of coast/sea/ocean tiles and low corruption. Cartaghe functioned reasonably well until I got sanitation. The new wonders where exceedingly more expencive and I needed some of them quite fast. What I did was to handicap all the 10 surrounding cities by giving Cartaghe all the tiles within the cityborders then I joined workers to the city to get it from size 9 to 20 in one turn. In effect I had the same shield and commercial output from my starting island, and I would get my wonders finished in a more timely matter from either Cartaghe or New York.

Luckily enough the new continent I had captured in the south-east gave me a second chance at designing a smoother citybuild. All my commercial docks have 8 or more water tiles, except my FP city New York that only had 7. Building tight clearly has it's advantages, but this game showed me that you also need a few optimal cities to meet the challenges of industrial improvement cost and modern units. Regarding Wall Street I really don't find it very usefull. Remove the cap on interest profits and it would be a carrot for building a healthy treasury. 50 GPT is just too little. As I've allready stated I deeply regret not building a Palace in NY, and I'm still in the fog regarding FP being available after you build a palace in a FP city. I would appreciate any insight on this subject from the oldtimers in here.

 

[RufRydyr]

Unlike the other screen shots I went after the middle continent after Egypt. Coal was no problem! I've been going after the weekest civs 1st. I've been building lots of libraries and selling the techs for loads of gold.

 

[RufRydyr]

-