*Spoiler3* Gotm17-Carthage OIL+RUBBER

Originally posted by Renata
800 AD!!! Yikes. If that's current, then yes, that's just not going to happen, I agree.
Sure doesn't seem likely on this one! :)

But the good news is that the other targets also seem rather unlikely. The wicked map Cracker gave us this time makes the new scoring targets look a bit far-fetched. But it seems to me that the new scoring will probably work well - they're all a bit far-fetched for this map, hopefully that will maintain balance.
 
Originally posted by Birdjaguar
How do you think the AI would have performed on Deity using this same map and scenario? Would the higher level have changed things significantly?
I think yes, very dramatically. The change in our research rate vs. the AI would be deadly on this map. Persia+England, Greece+Rome, and America+Russia+Germany would zoom to Navigation before we+Egypt could make much tech progress at all. Taking out Egypt would be a challenge and would drain resources. The other groups would be very strong as well as advanced by the time we could deal with them. Add the problem of attacking from a distance and the situation would be dire indeed I think - despite their sometimes silly tactics it would be very hard to invade any of them. Might even be very hard to survive...
 
Originally posted by Birdjaguar
How do you think the AI would have performed on Deity using this same map and scenario? Would the higher level have changed things significantly?

Birdjaguar, I really don't know because I have no experience with deity level games. What I understand from reading forums, etc. the tech research rate is getting more and more in the AI's favor the higher level you set, as is the human penalty growing with regard to citizen unhappiness. With regard to development of land and military punch, I just have no idea whether the AI is playing any smarter at higher levels.
 
How do you think the AI would have performed on Deity using this same map and scenario? Would the higher level have changed things significantly?

Like they said the tech pace would be much higher and it would be harder to take out other civ's due to both the advanced techs and the production bonus. Other civ defenses would be much stronger. But there would still be major flaws in the AI like there was in this game. The AI doesn't know how to wage an offensive war across water. So basically you could still sit back at home and not fear any substantial attacks. I bet even the least skilled player would not lose by conquest even on deity, unless maybe the Egyptians got them.

But the good news is that the other targets also seem rather unlikely. The wicked map Cracker gave us this time makes the new scoring targets look a bit far-fetched. But it seems to me that the new scoring will probably work well - they're all a bit far-fetched for this map, hopefully that will maintain balance.

I don't think the dates are meant to be achieved. Like you said even the other ones don't seem realistic. But the conquest and domination victory dates are completely absurd compared to the other ones. Domination in 720 AD and conquest is only 800 AD? Sorry but conquest is a ton harder to get on this map than domination is. I could have had domination a good 100 turns before I got conquest. But even the domination date is way too early. The diplomatic, space race, and cultural are much easier to get close to the date than domination or conquest are.

Another digression, about ship hopping:

Personally I'd consider this cheating. I know it's not against the GOTM rules, but it violates my own ethics. There's just no way ship-hopping should be possible. It's just exploiting the mechanics of the game. Just think about trying to do that realistically. Stationing 4 ships along the way between the US and Europe won't speed up how long it takes you to get to Europe. Only way I could see for Firaxis to fix this would be to make it so you can't move a ship that has units in it with 0 movement remaining. This would mean you'd have to wait a turn after loading a ship before you can move it though.
 
Sorry, if I miss someyhing in this discussion, but I know refining in 1780 and got oil on my island (south from Egypt), but after 4 or 5 turns it was exhausted! Thats all! In that time I was deep in war with Greece and even got Sparta, but have lack of cavalry. I dreamed build transports and destroyers, but now oil have the same damned Greece and I just jammed into that war for long/ Of cource. I have best histograph from start and number one in many positions, but my first plan with minimum violence victory finally felt :confused:
Am I one with this problem or its another cool map feature?

P.S. Sorry for my poor english and do'nt kick me hard, but please, send me URL with any program for getting real good screenshoths from Civ3. Already thanx 2 all for help and 2 Cracker for unique and fantastically interesting game.
 
Just prior to researching navigation I started building lots of cavalry (I already had millitary tradition) and I used my upgraded galleys/galleons to ship yhem to England/Persia, where I declared war on Persia and promptly took his main continent out. Over the coure of a century I took the entire archipelago which once was England and Persia. I couldn't finish them of cause the Persians had a city in the deep south and England had moved to the south also, to the barbarian island. I killed Lizzy later and liberated two mods and an administrator from the barbarians on the island... Resources aren't a problem. I traded a tech to Rome for coal and built my railroads. There's oil on the barbarian island and in another spot I control. Rubber's also around.
Nearing the end of the industrial age I started building tanks and I've just invaded Greece, and taken Greeces source of coal....

My golden age was triggered when Greece landed on my home island and declared war. My musketeers took care of that pretty quickly and the golden age yielded lots of money and 3 wonders, Universal suffrage, Theory of Evolution and Hoover dam (pretty much useless in this game, well, at least in mine).

All things considered it's going pretty well. I'll take out Greece next, and then Rome. After that? We'll see...

@Shura: For screenshots just press "print screen" and then open a program like Paint, and press "paste". The image should appear in Paint then.
 
Originally posted by shura
Sorry, if I miss someyhing in this discussion, but I know refining in 1780 and got oil on my island (south from Egypt), but after 4 or 5 turns it was exhausted! Thats all! In that time I was deep in war with Greece and even got Sparta, but have lack of cavalry. I dreamed build transports and destroyers, but now oil have the same damned Greece and I just jammed into that war for long/ Of cource. I have best histograph from start and number one in many positions, but my first plan with minimum violence victory finally felt :confused:
Am I one with this problem or its another cool map feature?

The disapperance of resources is purely based on chance. So you just had some serious bad luck! :(

P.S. Sorry for my poor english and do'nt kick me hard, but please, send me URL with any program for getting real good screenshoths from Civ3. Already thanx 2 all for help and 2 Cracker for unique and fantastically interesting game.

You don't need any special software. Check out the FAQ in the general discussion forum for info about how to post screenshots here. :)
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
I invaded Rome in 1260AD, finished off Rome+Greece in 1385AD, then headed for the next group. Started war on Zululand in 1415AD.


Interesting timeline SirPleb. If I understand it right, you killed of Cleopatra with swords, took the amer/ger/russio continent with knights and went for greece/rome before they could defend effectively vs your cavalries(only musketmen i guess).

In effect you where allmost an era ahead of me on each conquest as I like many others waited for cavalry since navigation is so far into the middle age tech tree. With the added early commerce from the american continent, and leaders you should be able to finish 20k culture on a very nice timeline i guess :) Most impressive.
 
What I have determined from this map is that it very much favors a space race / diplomatic win. The nature of the map is very much against a domination win.

I will end the game with the domination path as I am already commited, but my gut feeling says the majority of the good scores will be space race / diplomatic win. In the end I have failed to realize the correct winning method from the map.

Lessons learned:
If I ever play another map like this, I will go hyper-speed space race, and nothing else will matter.
The map was interesting the first time, but is not something I would repeat as pollution is a royal pain with all the split islands.
 
Originally posted by shura
P.S. Sorry for my poor english and do'nt kick me hard, but please, send me URL with any program for getting real good screenshoths from Civ3....

Shura,

Windows Paint and Photo Editor do work, but do not allow to save as .jpg which is most convenient for posting on the internet (Well, I for once was unable to do so with these built-in programs).

So I got my screenshot software from them:

http://www.etrusoft.com

It costs $20 to register, but I find it is well worth it as you have a few rudimentary editing capabilities (resize, crop, erase areas, save as .jpg, etc.) and has a nice autosave feature. It also has a good, clean and simple user interface.

There are many comparable programs out there that can do these things. I would recommend you do a search via google for "screenshot software" or something like that.
 
Originally posted by LKendter


Lessons learned:
If I ever play another map like this, I will go hyper-speed space race, and nothing else will matter.
The map was interesting the first time, but is not something I would repeat as pollution is a royal pain with all the split islands.

Nothing should stop you from altering your path as you see fit when you're going for domination. With the added production you should have little problems with out pacing a few minor regent civs in a space race. Besides, you needed to conquer some territory anyway to secure vital resources.

If you go for domination, you should have plenty of slaves. When pollution starts to be a problem you've most likely finished railroads and your slaves can then be stationed in fair groups on islands close to your production centres. I had 4 slaves on most of my smaller islands, and a transport in stand by for ferrying slaves if polution hit a mntn or a hill. Load/unload from cities function very nicely allowing them to move from one island to the next in one turn and still clean the pollution on that same turn.
 
Originally posted by LKendter
What I have determined from this map is that it very much favors a space race / diplomatic win. The nature of the map is very much against a domination win.

I will end the game with the domination path as I am already commited, but my gut feeling says the majority of the good scores will be space race / diplomatic win. In the end I have failed to realize the correct winning method from the map.

I agree with this, but I don't think it's right. You should be able to go for whatever victory condition you want and have an equally good chance of getting a high score. The scoring system shouldn't favor certain victory conditions over other ones, on any map.
 
Originally posted by LKendter
What I have determined from this map is that it very much favors a space race / diplomatic win. The nature of the map is very much against a domination win.

I absolutely agree. Whoever wins this one on domination did a terrific job in queueing up and shuffling around his units all over the place and may well be qualified to be Chief Logistics Officer at FedEx or so. So a big :goodjob: to all player who have had the endurance and patience to achieve that.

I would also think that Diplomacy (maybe even more so than Space Race) would be the natural win for Carthago to achieve given their traits of commercial and industrious.

Now in terms of final GOTM score I don't know how a relatively early Diplomatic win measures up against a somewhat later Domination win. I personally feel the final score is rather unimportant. If I feel I had a good game and made the right moves, then it's ok. Again, me personally would get no satisfaction sitting in front of the game and play from 1700's until 2050, augmenting the score on a game I already won way back when I defeated Egypt. I would just be bored to death.
 
In the ancient ages a stupid despot who was obsessed by making the Carthaginian culture dominate the world ruled the Carthaginians. Six good cities were founded and several wonders were built. Then a lot of small colonial towns were founded to build Carthaginian temples and libraries everywhere:p .

First war on Egypt
Soon there were no more free lands to build more colonial town in. Then Carthage declared war on the Egyptians. They attacked simultaneously two Egyptian cities, each with 3 veteran longbowmen guarded with Spartan Hoplites. The first longbowman to attack in the south was killed without even hurting the defending Egyptian regular spearsman. The second and the last barely won, but the city was at least captured. In the north it went even worse. Two longbowmen were killed by the defending Egyptian regular spearsmen and the Egyptians were taking just minimally casualties. What are those spears made of?:confused: The attack was halted until reinforcement arrived.

Then finally the city was captured and the Carthaginians could move on to the next Island, the one just west of the Egyptian mainland. Suddenly the Egyptians had invented Pikemen, but the Carthaginians quickly captured their iron source. Those pikemen seemed to be incompetent as well, they was actually less successful than the legendary old Egyptian spearsmen. Then the Carthaginians was clearly winning the war, but the Egyptian fools denied accepting several reasonable peace proposals so the war dragged on. During this war the Carthaginian colonial town in eastern Egypt, Rusicade, flipped to the Egyptians and Carthage lost a beloved luxury.

In 380 AD the Carthaginian people finally got fed up with the war and overran the despot. A peace treaty with Egypt was signed and in 440 AD the republic of Carthage was established.

Second war on Egypt
The new government continued the old culture plan from the despotic time. Suddently temples and libraries was rushed everywhere until they ran out of money. Then it was time for a new war on Egypt. This war was quite successful in the beginning. Rusicade flipped back to the Carthaginians. Can't they make up their minds?:crazyeye: A second Musketeer is rushed there to stop the Egyptian counterattack. Hamilcar won a great victory in these battles and celebrated it by building a forbidden palace in Rusicade. Then the Egyptians invented musketmen. The war was ended shortly afterwards with modest gains to the Carthaginians.

Third war on Egypt
The peace treaty wasn't really satisfying to anyone, and a new war was inevitable. After a short while of peace the Egyptians declared war on the Carthaginians. In 1405 AD the Egyptians captured Rusicade and destroyed Hamilcar's forbidden palace!:eek:

The trusted Carthaginian longbowmen was once again mobilized. With a little help from a couple of knights they did conquer the rest of the western Egyptian island, but not without heavy losses. After this campaign the Carthaginian offensive army was reduced to one single knight. Obviously further conquest was not achievable, so a new peace treaty was signed, but Carthago was already preparing for another war on Egypt. Lots of musketeers, cannons and some cavalry were build and shipped towards Egypt.

The war on Greece
Shortly after the third war on Egypt someone sold the technology of the steam engine to Carthago, but it was somewhat useless, as there was no coal inside the Carthaginian territory. To correct this, an invasion of Greece was ordered by the Carthaginian senate.

The task force at the Egyptian border was shipped down there together with a settler. A new city was founded by a Greek coal mine and lots of stuff were rushed there to secure the coal source. The armed forces seiged Sparta for an eternity, but couldn't capture it before several waves of reinforcements had arrived. Then the cannons could upgrade to artillery. 16 artillery were really effective! Athenes fell in a few turns and then the Greeks begged for peace.

Betrayed!
In 1764 AD Persia sneak attacks the Carthaginian mainland. Carthgo bribes Romans to teach the Persians a lesson, but didn't get much help from them. On the other hand, Persia dragged almost the entire world in to their war against Carthago.

Due to the complete incompetence of the Carthaginian generals, the important city of Malaca at the Carthaginian main land was left undefended so a Persian cavalry could just walk in and capture it:suicide:. The same happened to a couple of useless cities in the east.

Soon Rome breaks their alliance with Carthago and signs a peace treaty with Persia. In 1776 they actually sign a military alliance with Persia against Carthago! What a betrayal!:mad:

The wars drag on with various alliances fighting each other until the early 1900's. In 1904 the Carthaginian starting archipelago is finally totally controlled by its right owners. Then the Carthaginians manages to get peace with their last enemies. Peace, finally peace!:D

The wars had been severe to the Carthaginians. They had become seriously backwards. For 150 years they got almost now scientific advances. They were still fighting with artillery and infantry while the Persians was about to start building their space ship!:eek: Catching up in the tech race would be their only priority from now on...
 
What no coal? Can't trade for it, so whats a guy to do. WAR !! But wait, there is a supply of coal in Greece's territory that is not being used.
Load up a settler, bring along some troops and go build a new town. Rush built a harbour and now I have a supply of coal and as a special bonus, I have a great place to stockpile some more troops in a prelude wiping Greece off the map.
......many turns later....
That worked out even easier than I had thought.
 
The diplomatic, space race, and cultural are much easier to get close to the date than domination or conquest are.
Shillen,
Might you not be a tiny bit biased here? The culture 100k date is set to 1365 AD.

I went for culture from a pretty early stage, buying cathedrals like a religious madman (many of them giving 6 culture points before the end) and innumerable libraries and temples, rushed the Internet on a freshly cleared landmass and crammed cities there instantly for free research labs. My finshing date will be after my parents' birthdates. :king:

Of course I made a few mistakes too. Delaying the discovery of education was the most obvious one. But check out Moonsinger's finishing date - 1880 AD - if you still think 1365 was lenient.

You might be right, but can you be sure?
 
1365? Wow. Are these dates really supposed to be goals of some sort or are they only supposed to relative to each other in order to calculate scores?

Renata
 
Originally posted by Megalou
Of course I made a few mistakes too. Delaying the discovery of education was the most obvious one. But check out Moonsinger's finishing date - 1880 AD - if you still think 1365 was lenient.

Was it a 20K or 100K culture victory? A any culture victory by 1365 is very good. Actually, it's more than very good; it's excellent.:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by Singularity
Interesting timeline SirPleb. If I understand it right, you killed of Cleopatra with swords, took the amer/ger/russio continent with knights and went for greece/rome before they could defend effectively vs your cavalries(only musketmen i guess).
That's roughly it but not quite: I used Knights from the start. I don't think I built a single Swordsman in this game. That approach cost me a tad in research speed - I traded for Feudalism but had to research Chivalry to get it when I wanted it. When I learned Chivalry I upgraded 13 Horsemen and started on Egypt.

The Knights went on to attack Germany, and they upgraded to Cavalry a couple of turns before finishing off America. (No Musketmen for either of these Civs before they were gone.) Then the Cavalry went for Rome/Greece before they could produce better defenders than Musketmen (and there weren't many of these), then on to the Zulu to do the same there.

The defenders often seemed to be made of steel in this game. I lost more Knights and Cavalry against inferior units than I remember ever doing before. But it didn't matter much, I had good income and purchased a lot of new units in the lands I captured, as well as ship hopping some new units from the homeland.

If going for conquest/domination I'd have promoted wars between each local group of Civs before I arrived to weaken them. But since I wanted leaders more than speed I didn't take any alliances, wanted them to build up as many defenders as possible.
 
Shillen,
Might you not be a tiny bit biased here? The culture 100k date is set to 1365 AD.

Like I said, I don't think any of the dates are achievable, nor are they meant to be. But you can get culture victory a lot closer to 1365 AD than you can get conquest close to 800 AD. I had over 50k culture when I achieved conquest and I wasn't even trying for culture. We'll just have to see when the scores come out I guess.
 
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