*Spoiler5* Gotm21-Special Topic:Must have Submitted

[rabies]

Originally posted by Txurce
A bit more difficult to build the Pyramids, maybe - but not more diffficult to launch a spaceship by a very early date, the prime goal for many players.

True. The game reports do seem to indicate the predator players are changing ages sooner.

My goal was to achieve the best jason score I could, while still maintaining as fast a launch as I possibly could. In that respect, being able to build the pyramids probably would have gone a long way in greatly increasing my score...without hampering my launch date by a significant amount. I was rather bummed when Persia grabbed it...eliminating the chance for it to be a useful wonder to me in this game. I envied the reports of others, where it was built by a close neighbor.

 

[Ronald]

Predator 1.21f

This was the sequence of acient wonders in my game:

1350 BC Oracle Ottomans
1350 BC Colossus Persia
1025 BC Pyramids France
1000 BC Great Library Germany
900 BC Great Lighthouse Greece
610 BC Greta Wall Germany
50 AD Hanging Gardens France

The influence the human player can take is to give away or trade techs required for wonders to civs you want that they build it before xou trade with anybody else.

Ronald

 

[tao]

Open Class 1.29

1025BC Pyramids in Athens beating Sogut, Paris, Moscow (of the known world)
925BC Oracle in Paris beatiing Sogut, Paris, Moscow, Entremont
430BC Colossus in Zimbabwe beating Rheims, Odessa, Mo.Cs
410BC Great Library in Sogut beating Paris, Moscow, Berlin, Gortys, Camulodunum
410BC Great Wall in Berlin
330BC Great Lighthouse in Athens beating Rheims, Odessa, Mo.Cs, Knossos, Aydin
360AD Hanging Gardens in Lugdunum beating everybody because they started first (270BC)
550AD Sun Tzu's in Leipzig (coast, 3 pearls giving production power); this also led to making Germany a target for conquest (we capture Leipzig in 700AD).
700AD Leonardo's in Sogut making it our next target (captured 1020AD)

 

[Melifluous]

PTW 1.21 Open Class

Oracle - Berlin - Germans - 1075BC
Pyramids - Sogut - Ottomans - 850BC
Colossus - Minsk - Russians - 570BC
Great Wall - Sogut - Ottomans - 130BC
Great Library - Zimbabwe - Zulu - 50BC
Great Lighthouse - Lugdunum - Celts - 30BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage - Carthaginians - 30BC

Other people have mentioned that the Minoans built wonders in their games, looking back over my notes I see that I bought 2 workers from them in 1525BC and another in 750BC and probably stunted their growth somewhat.

Also in 800BC I bought a worker from the germans (after they built the Oracle, for some reason in every game I play the germans ALWAYS build the Oracle). In 775BC I buy another 2 workers from them. The Germans never really got anywhere either.

In a slight off shoot I would just like to say that the germans were annoyed with me the whole darn game, nothing I could do ever brought even a hint of a smile to Ottos moustachioed face.

French, Egyptians and Persians built nothing in my game although they did turn out to be OK trading partners in the Modern Ages, although nothing to compare with Russia, Ottomans and Carthage who basically funded my research and rushing throughout the IA.

Also can someone help me out here...
I see other peoples games from long long ago with rediculous amounts of land and little AI left yet they avoid the Domination limit??? Is there some skill or trick involved here that the HIGHER POWERS would care to share with us mere mortals?

Melifluous

PS. It seems that Sogut more than deserved the Nuke I gave it as I launched my SS, I hadnt realised that they built the Great Wall as well as the Pyramids. Well the Great Wall aint much of an SDI and the Pyramids aint gonna protect their ancestors bones from Gamma radiation, so there

PPS. Oompah loompahs? Willy wonker or wont he

 

[cracker]

So what happens if you give/sell/trade workers to the civ that you want to build the that "special wonder"??

 

[Melifluous]

Originally posted by cracker
So what happens if you give/sell/trade workers to the civ that you want to build the that "special wonder"??

That does indeed sound like a darn fine plan...

I was pondering the effects of you buying the workers, didnt think of gifting workers :doh:

Confound my programmering one track mind...



Melifluous

 

[Txurce]

Cracker, if there is a Wonder that is out of reach yet indeed special, then the game is probably still at an early stage. Workers are so valued at this stage that the GOTM has the eq mod to avoid exploitation. It's hard to imagine that the loss of a number of workers at such a crucial time is worth it, given that you are losing them to increase the odds - not to guarantee - of that wonder being built where you want it. Have you had success with the tactic you suggested, at a time when it mattered?

 

[konny]

PTW 1.21f Open

Oracle - 1075 BC Berlin/Germany
Colossus - 450 BC Antioch/Persia
Pyramids - 430 BC Carthage
Gr. Lighthouse - 250 BC Knossos/Minoans
Hang. Gardens - 70 BC Leipzig/Germany
Gr. Wall - 70 AD Knossos/Minoans
Gr. Library - 350 AD Berlin/Germany
Sun Tsu - 370 AD Bremen/Germany

As you can see, with the exception of the Colossus and the Pyramids, all of the wonders had been constructed by the Germans or the Minoans.
I still don't understand, why the Gr. Library was constructed so late. I really can't think of any reasonable explanation for this.

Looking at the locations, Berlin, Leipzig and Knossos seem to be well suited for wonder construction with enough food and hills around. I didn't wage any early wars against them, but rather traded like hell, so their financial and technological situation must have been pretty good through the Ancient Times.

I checked some cities for comparison in 130 AD.
Berlin - 14 Shields, 3 Food
Leipzig - 7 S, 2 F
Knossos - 17 S, 1 F
Entremont - 17 S, 1 F
Atlantis - 6 S, 4 F
Carthage - 8 S, 4 F

So Entremont is also a nice location, but the Celts waged permanent wars against the Ottomans, and Entremont is pretty close to the border.
Leipzig, the second best German city, is as productive as other capitols like Carthage or Atlantis.
Knossos has only produced the Gr. Lighthouse and the Gr. Wall so far. No city improvements, just two wonders in 130 AD ...

I checked some save games to see what was under construction at certain points of time.

1990 BC (contact with Germany,
none

925 BC (contact with the northern civs only)
Oracle: Berlin/Germany finished in 1075 BC

Pyramids: Knossos/Minoans; Uskundar/Ottomans; Entremont/Celts; Berlin/Germans; Paris/French; Moscow/Russians
Colossus: Zakros/Minoans; Lugdunum/Celts; Leipzig/Germans; Odessa/Russians

130AD (contact with all civs)
Colossus: Antioch/Persia finished in 450 BC
Pyramids: Carthage finished in 430 BC
Gr. Lighthouse: Knossos/Minoans finished in 250 BC
Hanging Gardens: Leipzig/Germany finished in 70 BC
Gr. Wall: Knossos/Minoans finished in 70 AD

Gr. Library: under construction by everyone but Atlantis

Looking at the above, there don't seem to be any cascading effects. Maybe the Gr. Lighthouse in Knossos was one (switched from Pyramids to Gr. Lighthouse). The construction of the Colossus and the Pyramids with just one turn in between must have been pure coincidence as Carthage was not a coastal city.

Atlantis simply didn't bother with building wonders (of course i can't verify that Atlantis never ever started a wonder). In 130 AD, four of the five top cities were Atlantan cities (only Berlin being in second position among them). So there is no need to start any wonders, if a civ has the top cities anyway?

 

[CruddyLeper]

Well, here's what I've been able to glean. Playing Predator 1.29

First, I did buy just the 1 worker from Germany, some time between 1000BC and 590BC. I bought 2 Russian workers between 590BC and 10AD.

I had 2 usable saves for examination - one 590BC, the other 310BC. The 310BC was an Anarchy turn save, so I hit return a few times to get me into a govt circa 250BC - that way I could establish embassies etc.

The WOW lineup in my game;-

The Collosus 1225BC Knossus (Minoan)
Pyramids 1075BC Sogut (Ottoman)
Oracle 1075BC Entremont (Keltoi Cascade)
Great Wall 630BC Sogut (Ottoman)
Great Lighthouse 410BC Richborough (Keltoi)
Great Library 90 BC Knossus (Minoan)
Hanging Gardens 90BC Entremont (Keltoi Cascade)

From the 590BC Save

Great Lighthouse Production

Knossus Minoan 14 turns
Leptis Minor Carthage 88 turns
Salamanca Spain 53 turns
Richborough Keltoi 9 turns
Bactria Persians 134 turns
Orleans French 39 turns
Marassantiya Hittite 43 turns


Great Library Production

Phaistos Minoans 178 turns
Alexandria Egyptians 171 turns
Carthage Carthage 51 turns
Bursa Ottoman 120 turns
Toledo Spanish 180 turns
Entremont Keltoi 23 turns
Persepolis Persia 119 turns
Berlin Germans 71 turns
Paris France 34 turns
Hattusus Hittite 44 turns
Zimbabwe Zula 49 turns
Moscow Russia 34 turn

At this stage, all civs still in despotism.

For the 250 BC save (after Richborough had built the Great Lighthouse) these places were building the Great Library;-

Knossus Minoan 9 turns
Rome Roman 60 turns
Bursa Ottomans 336 turns
Alexandria Egypt 72 turns
Leptis Minor Carthage 9999 turns (anarchy)
Salamanca Spain 27 turns
Entremont Keltoi 16 turns
Ur Babylon 35 turns
Persepolis Persia 47 turns
Berlin Germans 25 turns
Zimbabwe Zulu 53 turns
Moscow Russia 21 turns

At this stage of the game, only civs still in despotism were the Babs and Persians, with Carthage still revolting. France had a war with someone - pretty sure it was Spain. I had just started a GPT deal with France for silks, and it ruined my GPT reputation for the rest of the game.

So, to put matters simply - Knossus just missed out on the Great Lighthouse, but pipped Entremont to the Great Library because of the cascade. It wasn't immediate, it took several centuries - but having stored up so many shields, it's understandable why Volak just put them towards the next wonder.

I can't really see much difference between Germany building the Great Library or the Minoans.

EDIT: One thing that delayed Ottoman and German wonders was a war between them around 300-200BC. I can't check the start date for sure, but they are going for it hammer and tongs around 10AD, so that certainly didn't help their cause.

 

[ltccone]

Open Class

My early wonders:

Oracle - Berlin 1075 BC
Colossus - Pasargadae 950 BC
Pyramids - Entremont 450 BC
Great Library - Carthage 430 BC
Great Lighthouse - Knossos 410 BC
Hanging Gardens - Berlin 260 AD
Great Wall - Marseilles 260 AD

The completion of the Pyramids by the Celts caused a cascade to the Great Library and Great Lighthouse.

I never even attempted to build early wonders.

 

[cracker]

Konny,

Do not interpret the Atlantan Wonder build decisions that way. Atlantis was denied the ability to build all early wonders or they would surely have built 4 out of the first 8 wonders. The AI fixates on wonders even if they have no strategic value to them when obtained.

 

[hotrod0823]

I see a few other Predator games that have the Great Wall going to the Ottomans. I think it has to do with the flags for industrious and militaristics but I also think that the Ottomans have a thing for researching Construction. First to get construction means in this particular case first to start the Great Wall (like cracker stated without reguard to value).

In another recent game (unmodded) I have seen the ottomans choose to research construction before some of the other techs such as lit, even if it gets them cheap libraries.

 

[samildanach]

So what happens if you give/sell/trade workers to the civ that you want to build the that "special wonder"??

Wouldn't it be simpler to pull Moonsingers trick of developing the AI infrastucture yourself rather than gift them workers. Cracker as you have already stated workers in PTW aren't rocket scientists, who knows if you would get the desired pay-off by gifting. Although it does have the advantage that it might be quicker if they were put to good use- simply putting the workers in your capital and then trading them rather than having to march them over to the AI wonder city.
Also by helping out a nearby civ the wonder that they would most likely construct would be the oracle-one that I generally have very little use for.

 

[Tone]

I was going for a 20K victory and managed three of the ancient age wonders. I missed out on the GL and its massive 6 culture/turn which led to a cascade. Ancient age summary:

1175BC Colossus Athens
850BC Oracle Ottomans (Sogut)
590BC Pyramids Germans (Berlin)
530BC GL Russians (Minsk)
510BC G Wall Ottomans (Sogut)
510BC G Lighthouse Athens
340AD H Gardens Athens

As hotrod has said already, Sogut was well placed for high production and I don't think they suffered from any aggressive neighbours early on. I certainly kept well away from trouble but the downside was that all wonders were handbuilt until I ventured out to wage wars in the industrial age and got a couple of GLs.

A number of people had games where Persia built a number of wonders. In mine they managed none but I don't know why. I don't think that they were in any early wars.

I got four of the middle age wonders plus all the others (except strategic missile defence which was not avaliable) so only the Germans and the Ottomans stood out as successful wonder builders. They cerainly had the terrain but maybe what held the Germans back from getting more was their warmongering.

Many have much faster games but I was keen to hold back research to give my wonders time to accumulate culture without worrying about a space race defeat. However having read Mad-bax's entertaining report on his game, maybe I should be bolder. It sounds like he had much more fun as well as a far superior score. In the end I achieved my victory but a poor Jason score. Next month I will be more adventurous!!

edit: PTW 1.21 OPEN

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Conquest 1.29f

I'm at work, so all I have is my game log. I don't know which cities. I'll come back and add them later. Since I didn't get any wonders (1st GOTM, 1st Monarch game) maybe this is what Cracker is looking for.

690 BC - French get Pyramids
670 BC - Ottomans get Oracle (not a cascade since France went first)
630 BC - Russians build Collosus.
590 BC - Minoans build Great Library.
310 BC - Zulus build Great Lighthouse.
90 AD - French build Great Wall
270 AD - Ottomans build Hanging Gardens

In retrospect, I could have gotten some of these with a pre-build or two. I don't think the AI's do pre-builds.

Lessons learned.

 

[scubagtr]

Cracker,
Your questions and queries are almost more then my feeble mind can take. I play the games and, I think I did well, but with all these side questions and observations, I guess I need to focus more what really happened. All I know is some civs tried to bring it on and I crushed them, nuff' said.

Actually, I will try to look back at my save files and compare them to what everyone else had. I know I just need some more disipline to track what really happens. Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful !!!

 

[jeffelammar]

Wonders :
875 BC - Greece builds Pyramids in Athens
875 BC - Germany builds Oracle in Berlin
670 BC - Ottomans build Great Library in Sogut
550 BC - Greece builds Colossus in Athens.
310 BC - Persia builds Great Lighthouse in Bactra

As you can see, Germany was almost certainly trying for the Pyramids. (In fact this showed in the Wonder screen)
In a quick view of things I noticed a couple things about the wonder builders.
#1. Persia and Germany had a luxury in their capitol. (not sure if it was hooked up then)
#2. The Ottoman AI was so dumb that he founded Sogut on a Wheat bonus square. I would have hoped the AI would not be that dumb.

I would hypothesize that happiness makes a big difference in AI building. An AI with no happiness problems probably feels less inclined to build a Temple, and more to start on a wonder.

Both Ottomans and Germany also seemed to be hemmed in by Mountains. This may also be a factor. If the AI doesn't see much expansion area they might also try for a wonder instead.

Other than that I have no guesses.

 

[Wotan]

Wonders :
875 BC - Russians build Colossus in Kiev
775 BC - Carthagians builds Pyramids in Carthage
730 BC - Ottomans builds Oracle in Sogut
490 BC - Greeks build Great Library in Athens
310 BC - Minoans builds Great Lighthouse in Knossos

I had a look at the 1000BC save and the following builds was in progress:

The Pyramids, built by Greeks in Athens, Ottomans in Sogut, French in Paris and Russians in Moscow.
The Colossus built by Celts in Mohács, Russians in Kiev.
The Great Lighthouse by Minoans in Knossos.
The Oracle by Ottomans in Iznik, Germans in Berlin and Celts in Entremont.

 

[Darkness]

PTW 1.21f Open class

Well, there were no wonder cascades in my game

1325 BC - Collossus - Minoan
850 BC - Pyramids - Ottomans (I was already preparing my invasion of them to set up my second core, so this was a real bonus)
690 BC - Oracle - Carthage
450 BC - Great Library - Minoan (This nominated them as my number 2 target, after the Ottomans)
310 BC - Great Wall - Ottomans (Gave them a GA)
130 BC - Great Lighthouse - Persia
170 AD - Hanging Gardens - Greece (rushed with a GL in the formerly Ottoman capital, now the Greek capital, Sogut)

This meant that the Oracle and the Lighthouse were out of reach for Greece, but that didn't matter, as the Oracle became obsolete about 40 turns after Carthage had built it and I didn't really need the Lighthouse anyway. I already had all the contacts at that time and I was concentrating on getting the starting landmass under control before moving to distant (overseas) conquests...

 

[Vici]

CIVIII V1.29 Open.

I had many save files so I was able to go back after the game and investigate the cities when wonders were about to be completed. I would need to go back and investigate the cities when the wonders were started.

--------------------------------------------------------
925BC The pyramids created by France in Paris.
Paris is at size 6 (Grow in 1) with one entertainer, making 10 shields per turn. Paris has one lux, no infrastructure except palace. All tiles being worked are mined.
Four mined BG, one mined wheat.

France had started the Pyramids when made contact in 1990BC. Nobody else that I knew (Minoans, Germany, Russia) had started it at this time. Paris was at size 2 with 4 shields due to grow in one turn, with three excess food. Pyramids were due in 87. This means that Paris started three turns before I made contact.
It is interesting that Paris mined rather that irrigated the wheat.

At this stage (when Pyramids are built), we also know Minoans, Ottomans, Keltoi, Germany, and Russia.

Pyramids being constructed by Ottomans in Sogut, Keltoi in Entremont, Russia in Moscow.

Sogut is 21 turns from Pyramids. Has 5 citizens (one entertainer), grow in 7. Has no luxuries. Making 8 shields per turn. Switched to Great Library.

Entremont is 68 turns from Pyramids, is size 2, grow in 7. One lux connected. Has two mined BG tiles not being worked for lack of citizens. Switches to Oracle. He had just started building Oracle in Lugdunum but abandoned that build without wasting any shields.

Moscow is 44 turns from Pyramids. Is size 6, grow in 9. One entertainer, one lux connected. making six shields. Switches to Great Library.

----------------------------------------------------------
800BC The Oracle created by Germany in Berlin.
I am at war with Germany so I can't investigate Berlin. (War started when I refused tribute).

The Oracle was being built by Ottomans in Antalya, They had just started, so no cascade.

Keltoi in Entremont, Size 2, 5 shields per turn, 44 turns to go on Oracle switched to Granary with very little loss of shields. They didn't have any other wonder to switch to.

France in Lyons, size 3, grow in 3 (with Granary from Pyramids), Temple and one lux, five shields per turn, Oracle due in 50, switches to Great Library,

--------------------------------------------------------
650BC The Colossus created by Zulu in Zimbabwe.
I don't have contact so I can't do any investigation.

The Colossus being built by Minoans in Knossos, Keltoi in Lugnunum, Russia in Minsk.

Knossos, size 3, grow in 5, 6 shields per turn, The Colossus due in 16 switched to Great Library. He has irrigated BG in despotism. Has mined the sheep on the hills but only roaded the BG.

Lugnunum, size 3, grow in 4, 4 shields per turn. Colossus due in 39 switched to Great Lighthouse.

Minsk, size 3, grow in 4, 5 shields per turn.
Colossus due in 22 switched to Great Lighthouse.

---------------------------------------------------------
570BC The Great Library created by Ottomans in Sogut.
Sogut, size 7, grow in 36. one entertainer, one lux. 12 shields per turn.

Being constructed by Minoans in Knossos, Ottomans in Sogut, Germans in Berlin, French in Lyons.

Knossos, size 3, grow in 1, 7 shields per turn, Great Library due in 35, switched to Great Lighthouse.
He has now mined the bonus grass that he only had roaded when I looked before.

Lyons is size 4, grow in 1, one entertainer. Great Library due in 45, switched to library.

----------------------------------------------------------
290BC The Great Lighthouse created by Mnoans in Knossos.
Knossos size 5, no growth, 10 shields per turn. One entertainer, no infrastructure, no entertainers
.
Great lighthouse being created by Keltoi in Lugdnum, France in Orleans, Russia in Minsk.

Minsk size 7, grow in 7. One entertainer, 8 shields per turn, great lighthouse due in 13, switched to great wall and completed immediately.

Lugdnum size 6, grow in 16. One lux, no entertainers. 10 shields per turn, Great Lighthouse due in 12.


The Great Wall created by Russia in Minsk.
Cascade is broken.

Here it was interesting that there was only one turn difference between Russia and Keltoi and the order they played in determined who got the Great Wall when the Great Lighthouse was completed.
---------------------------------------------------------

I did not try for any of the ancient wonders. (I did start Pyramids in Thermopylae, but converted it to a temple when I saw that there was no way that I could beat Paris to it, even after merging workers into the city. I didn't want to risk going for any of the other wonders with so many rivals in the game.

When Germany declared war on me (950BC), I signed alliance with France and Minoans.

It would have been nice if Germany had built the Pyramids instead of France. Nobody that I had contact with was anywhere close to France in building it.
I don't know why Germany chose to start Oracle rather than Pyramids, not that it would have made any difference.