Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

[Black Waltz]

I think that in the manual this whole discussion is very well summed up. Granted, Firaxis were talking about religeon but I believe that the same sentiment can be used for this debate to.

"We are games developers, not theologians"

 

[nutnutwin]

Stalin is in the game?

It's Peter the Great, you dumb ass...

 

[Perfect_Blue]

~cough~ expansion pack....

 

[5cats]

#1 While Hitler may indeed be considered to be evil, I think that he was no less evil than other rulers of the known past.

#2 France created the Monigot Line, covering a huge swath of borderland near Germany with defensive fortresses and supply lines. However, Germany did the most simple thing to solve this problem: It conquered Belgium, and then just went into France from the formerly Belgian border that wasn't covered by the Monigot Line.

#3 The Nazis employed prisoners, be they Jewish or POWs that weren't American into a forced labor taskforce. When they executed the living or ceremented the dead, this practice had a practical side: the remains typically had something of value, like gold teeth - which was naturally put to use. These are examples of the vicious and practical hatemongering of the Nazi party.

#4 In addition to this, Hitler had ordered an attack on Russia. This wasn't a good idea by any means at the time, mostly because winter was coming up in Russia, and that the Germans already had enough on their proverbial plates with the many fronts they were already fighting. To support the Eastern Front during winter would have required many parts, food, clothing, and manpower to carry out.

#5 As for America and it's role in the war...it initially supplied the Allied powers through cargo ships, containing food, supplies, and even weapons. Not content to allow the Americans to do such things freely, the submarines of the German nation hunted the unescorted vessels.

I numbered you paragraphs & changed Poland to Belgium for clarity's sake. I was just going to comment on #5, but will throw in some other quick notes too.

#1 True enough, but the whole Nazi thing is so bad, it should be excluded from 'popular' games.

#2 I'm assuming you mean Belgium here which was also supposed to build it's own Maginot Line right to the sea, but never got around to it. There was one truely impressive fortress, but about 100 German paratroopers captured it overnight...

#3 The "Final Solution" came late in the war, and didn't really involve much besides running death camps. There was no other 'purpose' to the death camps other than killing people. Also the forced labour program killed many 10s of thousands too, not POWs like the Japanese, but civilians.

#4 The whole purpose of WW2 was to attack Russia. If they hadn't fooled around in Yugoslavia & Greece (because of the stupid Italians) they would have started the attack 3 weeks earlier, and quite likely would have captured both Moscow and Leningrad in the first year.

#5 This happened some in WW1, but not WW2. The secret & illegal shipping of war supplies did happen before the USA entered the war, but the German subs didn't knowingly sink any American ships.
They DID sink a destroyer, which was conducting excercises with British ships (illegal) had no flag or markings (illegal) and was ordered to "flounder about" in the excercise, in a deliberate effort to get sunk!
AFTER the USA entered the war, they offered up their coastal shipping lines as bait to pull the Wolfpacks away from Britian. This worked too well and nearly crippled the American economy! But it did allow a few more ships to reach Britian when it was most desperately needed.

 

[Brighteye]

It's because socialism in the extreme like Stalin and Mao are just as bad as fascism in the extreme in El Duce and Hitler. Yet it's ok to put in Stalin and Mao but not the other two. It's the double standard a majority of posters have. I wonder how fast my ip would be banned if my screen name was "Adolph Hitler", yet I see "Joseph Stalin" is doing just fine.

I'm not saying that fascism is good. Please don't misunderstand me. I just feel that extreme socialism is just as bad.

I've wondered about this too. The Nazis wanted to remove Jews from the country, and for most of their reign they were quite content to have the Jews go somewhere else. Other than their treatment of the Jews and other undesirables in the final solution the Nazis ran the German economy efficiently, making an average-sized country so industrially and technologically powerful that it took the great powers of Europe and America to defeat it.
They achieved this, but they were fascists.
Stalin was a communist. He took control of a huge state that ought to be a superpower and killed millions of people just because he felt a little paranoid. Which is more evil? Killing the people you rule because you feel like it, when the whole essence of communism is power to the people, or killing a selected group of people because although you don't like killing people you, in your twisted thinking, believe that the good of your country comes first and this is for the good of the country.
Stalin killed more people, for less reason, and, given the resources he started with, one might say that he achieved less with his country.
Of course you can say that Stalin thought that his purges were for the good of his country. But you certainly can't say that Stalin was a pure idealist but Hitler was just evil. They're both tarred with the same brush; both idealists whose ideals, or interpretations thereof, are flawed.

Surely they're both very similar when it comes to deciding who was 'more evil'? The only difference is that the US was friends with Stalin, and that a lot of people are more sympathetic to communist socialism than to national socialism.

 

[sgrig]

Having thought about this whole Hitler vs Stalin debate, I came up with a few more ideas why Hitler will never be in the game.

Hitler is still a very important as a symbol of racism, xenophobia and fascism. Many neo-nazi groups around the world have Hitler as a symbol and an idol for their activities. For example they mark Hitler's birthday, use 88 or HH as a code, etc.

However Stalin is just a name from history books and I don't think any extremist communist groups use Stalin as an icon. Possibly the only people in the world who still really revere Stalin are some Russian pensioners. Also generally Stalin stands more for his personal ruthless dictatorship rather than the ideology he represented. This reflects the fact that he merely used communist ideology to tighten his personal grip on power, while Hitler was the creator of a dangerous and twisted ideology.

It is well known in history that ideology can drive the masses, and since Hitler is a symbol of his own ideology, his depiction is considered more dangerous and undesirable.

 

[Brighteye]

You should know FDR like I should know Churchill. They were both leaders of world powers during WWII. I don't expect you to know all his policies, but I would think you would know that he was president during that time. I try not to be so pro-American as to expect you to know Teddy Roosevelt. I admidt I don't know much of the history of England and their leaders, so I don't expect others to know my history.

Although West Point is something unfamiliar with non-Americans, there are things in Civ games that I didn't know about until they were in the game. The Chicken I... thing. I didn't know about the Hanging Gardens until Civ II. Is there a more popular World Wonder that would provide the same benefits as West Point while being from the same era? Not trying to be mean, just pointing out that it might be a case of the benefit coming first, and the creaters could think of nothing else to represent it.

The guy was a Scot. Try naming a famous Scottish leader of modern times. I know vaguely about FDR, but actually I know more about Teddy Roosevelt. He's in school history.
The Hanging Gardens were one of the original 7 wonders of the ancient world. West Point is just an American training camp. It could just as well be Sandhurst. In fact, I may as well change that game file. Since it's an American game, West Point is a reasonable default.

 

[Pasta_Man]

sgrig, lets not forget Hitler really just hijacked a lot of Mussolini's ideas and attached his thoughts on Jews and lebensraum. I know that's terribly simplified but there's nothing inherently dangerous or evil or undesirable about fascism.

It many respects it's a good form of government and gets things done, unlike today in which human rights have taken over and have become so ridiculous that the EU is going to get it's ass handed to itself on a plate by the Chinese. How can we compete when the French constantly dictate to us that employees can only work 15 minutes a day and 10 of those are spent on breaks?

Sorry... I've got issues with the EU.

 

[Prince Ares]

Stalin was chosen because he was fighting alongside the Allies during WWII. Despite the brutal murders that his regime was responsible for, it is inarguable that Russia played a key part in defeating Nazi Germany, and contributing to Allied success. It could even be argued that many Russians have looked upon Stalin as a formiddable wartime leader.

Mao was chosen because he is still looked up upon by many classes of Chinese society. It's common fact that many hold Mao in a positive light mainly due to his wartime duties. For example, fighting the Japanese invasion. While much of the Western world often reiterate many of Mao's mistakes, for example the slaughter of millions, we most not forget that is not what Mao is known for in Chinese society. It is his wartime record, and his ability to lead his country at the time of their greatest need.

Hitler is not in the game because it is widely accepted that this man was simply pure evil. There is a weak argument for Hitler as a liberator or whatever you want to call it. Stalin and Mao did many good things, as well as many bad things. Hitler only did bad things. Much of German society do not like Hitler anyway.

This is NAIVE! No human is prue evil. Hitler did some good things too. He had, just like Stalin and Mao, crazy Ideeas. I think he should be implemented too!

Ps. Are you frome Germany? Because I heard that Germans is totalt brainwashed and se Hitler as an Demon whit huge horns!

 

[SpriteSODA]

Stalin murdered because he was a total nuts, but Hitler murdered because of hate and racisim and because of that he's worst then Stalin and will never be at Civ.

 

[SenhorDaGuerra]

Stalin is in the game?

It's Peter the Great, you dumb ass...

if you read my original post properly, you dumbass small brained idiot, you would have noticed that i put in brackets "i assume he will be in the expansion from screenies". I know reading is difficult for you, but please, learn to read before insulting me.

I guess, the point i was trying to make was that people's perceptions of these leaders is somewhat unfair. They were all mass murdurers, but the difference being that Stalin and Mao "got away with it."

I think the Chinese Socialist Party recognise that many of Mao's economic policies were misguided, and i think they state something weird that he was 70% right and 30% wrong, or something along those lines. He is however still revered as a great man and leader. Kinda eerie that you can see his body still in his mausoleum in the middle of tianamen square.

take it easy dudes.

 

[SilentDemon]

Stalin murdered because he was a total nuts, but Hitler murdered because of hate and racisim and because of that he's worst then Stalin and will never be at Civ.

Keep in mind that these murders had purpose behind them. Afterall if it were *just* out of hate and racism, Hitler probably would've been murdering people personally, of which accounts there are none.

 

[SpriteSODA]

No purpose. He conquered Poland, gathared all Jews to tiny camps for hundreds of thousands and then sent them by trains to be killed with gas.
He repeated it in his every moves, including murdurering the jews of Italy when he conquered it after mosolini's depart of the political map.
The only purpose of killing jews was killing jews.

 

[Prince Ares]

He did it because he wnted to punish them. After world war 1 General von Hindenburg spread lyes that his army where not defeated, and that Germany had lost because of a communist revolution supported by Jewish money! Hitler, and all other Germans of course wanted to take revange on the jews and communists ´when Hindenburg spread thos lies.

You maby didn't know that...

 

[sgrig]

sgrig, lets not forget Hitler really just hijacked a lot of Mussolini's ideas and attached his thoughts on Jews and lebensraum. I know that's terribly simplified but there's nothing inherently dangerous or evil or undesirable about fascism.

Well, if you think that there is nothing undesirable or dangerous about an ideology which claims that one ethnicity is superior to another, then I pity you.

 

[Chamaedrys]

He did it because he wnted to punish them. After world war 1 General von Hindenburg spread lyes that his army where not defeated, and that Germany had lost because of a communist revolution supported by Jewish money! Hitler, and all other Germans of course wanted to take revange on the jews and communists ´when Hindenburg spread thos lies.

You maby didn't know that...

This lie ("Dolchstosslegende") was told to distract from hindenburgs responsbility and to keep the militaristic ideology of the German konservatives alive.
Many Germans DID NOT believe this lie. Infact this lie was used to defame labour unions and democratic people.

 

[Chinetter]

Everyone seems to be missing the actual point as far as leaders to be included for the game's civs, perhaps understandable given the unique degree of global noteriety that figures like Hitler, Stalin and Mao have and deserve.

With regard to the relative merits of different world leaders, the game is agnostic just as it is with religion. What matters is whether the given leader was successful in achieving longterm change of his/her society.

Obviously, Mao scores high in this regard. Stalin also scores higher than Hitler: the USSR lasted severall decades after Stalin's death and was for a long while a superpower, while Nazism as a governing philosophy/method in Germany died with Hitler. So to me it makes perfect sense that Mao is in the game's original release, and that Stalin would be included in an expansion without Hitler.

 

[DAv2003]

Well, if you think that there is nothing undesirable or dangerous about an ideology which claims that one ethnicity is superior to another, then I pity you.

That's Nazism. Fascism isn't the same thing as it lends more to the control of one person of the State.

 

[SpriteSODA]

He did it because he wnted to punish them. After world war 1 General von Hindenburg spread lyes that his army where not defeated, and that Germany had lost because of a communist revolution supported by Jewish money! Hitler, and all other Germans of course wanted to take revange on the jews and communists ´when Hindenburg spread thos lies.

You maby didn't know that...

jewish is a religion!!!! if a jewish does something then all jewish support it?
6 million jewish people we're murdererd systematicly, and this have no connection to commonist revolts. Even in his book, which he wrote years before him being the leader, Hitler wrote that all jewish people must die...

 

[microbe]

Hitler was a LOSER, while Mao and Stalin were not. In fact, they were quite the opposite.