Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

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SpriteSODA said:
jewish is a religion!!!! if a jewish does something then all jewish support it?
6 million jewish people we're murdererd systematicly, and this have no connection to commonist revolts. Even in his book, which he wrote years before him being the leader, Hitler wrote that all jewish people must die...

Yes, Sprite, we know that being of a religion doesn't make your esponsible for everything that anyone of that religion does, but it doesn't mean that the lie didn't affect people. The quote (which I haven't seen) about a big lie and a small one comes to mind. 'The public' is stupid. With enough articles carefully glossing over the problems with something or only referring to it in passing people believe anything.
People believe that the MMR vaccine cause autism.
People believe that aliens exist, have landed and have abducted hundreds of Americans.
People believe that GWBush is a wise man.
People believe that Tony Blair has done wonders for this country.
People believe that most animal experiments are registered drugs trials.
 
because if you put hitler in the game, you lose german sales because it's forbidden by law. if you put stalin and mao in the game, you actually increase russian and chinese sales (many in those countries have neutral or positive feelings about those two, no matter how much westerners wish otherwise).

good business decision
 
At the end of the day, there are multiple leaders to choose from so I feel he should be included... If you don't like him, dont play as him or script him out of your game. If he causes issues for Germans then have him removed from the German release.

I think it's madness to exclude the man who made by far the biggest impact on the 20th century simply because certain people regard him as the devil and pure evil. Although he may have done a lot of wrong, we can't ignore the fact he existed. The chance should even be taken to include a really good, factual civilopedia entry for him to educate those who have misinformed.
 
Who cares if you don't like them don't play as them. I would have fun as America killing Hitler's Empire.
Instead lets look at the real killer...religion. That has killed more people than any leader so why is that allowed in the game?:p
Ohh wait...it is apart of history like Stalin, Mao, and Hitler.

Maybe we should remove Napoleon. How many died in his wars across Europe. Bismark too. What about all of the Gauls Caesar and the Romans killed? Rome brutally murdered the Jews so why not remove that culture from the game? Ghengis Khan's crew raped and pillaged countless cities. Exclude the Mongols. Spain's Inqusition was a purge of noncatholics in Spain. Japan committed countless genocides (Najing Rape among others) on the Chinese blacklist them. Montezuma and the Aztecs had human sacrifices of thier enemies in countless numbers should they be removed too.
The point is that everyone has skeletons in thier closet and if you don't like that group or leader you don't have to use them. I'm sure that people don't use Mao now so what is the difference will seeing thier name in your game cause your eyes to melt. I manage to play Hearts of Iron 2 with both Hitler and Stalin:eek: !!! The game is made for everyone and I'm sure many people play as Mao now and many more as Stalin or Hitler later. This game is supposed to allow you to take historical countries and leaders and create your own place in your own custom world. If you don't like history the way it is you can go back in time and change the past like Red Alert! (Be warned changing the past will affect the future in unpredictable ways:) )
 
I know this has been said, but there are two reasons: one, there are a lot of people who wouldn't buy a game with hitler in it, and two, stalin and mao actually made there countries more powerful while killing millions, while hitler killed millions and left his country in terrible condition. he simply wasn't that great of a leader, especially compared to the other german leaders.
 
Because Jews have such a great influence in our society, they will never allow it to come to pass.
 
In my understanding of history, they are three very different cases.

Mao won a liberation war (against the japanese) and a civil war. Since in power, I believe he did not, willingly, plan or order mass murders and genocides. He did, however, make some spectacularly bad political/economical decisions which starved to death millions (great leap forward) and very nearly caused a second civil war (cultural revolution). The decisions which triggered these events, however, were based on more or less reasonable principles, such as "producing more steel" (by, er, turning farms into steel mills and leading to a famine) or "letting the young express their criticisms".

On the contrary, Stalin's policies led the USSR to an incredible, unprecedented growth and developement. Lenin left an agricultural, backward country. Stalin not only won WWII, but miraculously turned this country in the superpower which was to launch the first ever satellite in space in 1957 (Stalin died in 1953). However, he indeed was a mass murderer, and quite evil for that matter, since he, among many others killed *all* the revolutionaries which had been his comrades in 1917, no exception.

Now, Hitler. My point is that the guy is only to be remembered for criminal actions, defeats, and generally can be considered a complete loser. Yes, he may have done a decent job in rebuilding Germany after WW1, but, as one can see from what happened after WW2, when Germany was even more broken and recovered even faster, that was probably not that that hard a task, the country had the energy to rebuild itself alone.
Apart from that, diplomatically he was a total failure. His only ally in Europe was -hear what- ITALY! (note: I am italian) a poor, backward country at the time with an extremely weak army.
Strategically, a complete failure also. He attacked Poland thinking that England and France would not react. Wrong. He managed to keep the USSR neutral, only to attack it in 1941, as if having to fight just about everyone else was not enough. Crazy. Ok he won some partial victories out of surprise but what are they good for? In the end he was losing so bad, German cities crumbling under carpet bombings while his troops retreated and, still delusionally convinced he could win, he was not even able to surrender the country properly, as ANY decent ruler in history would have done. He sent 12 years old children to the front and eventually suicided in a bunker while the cossacks and the yankees shaked their hands over the smoking ruins of Berlin.
In the meantime he slaughtered millions of jews, and also hundreds of thousands gypsies and internal political opposers. Should he be considered a "great leader"?

To me it would be very similar to having the emperor Nero, who reportedly set fire to Rome to blame the Christians, lost wars, was paranoid, killed his own mother and eventually committed suicide, as a Roman leader. Any supporters for the idea??
 
SpriteSODA said:
jewish is a religion!!!! if a jewish does something then all jewish support it?
6 million jewish people we're murdererd systematicly, and this have no connection to commonist revolts. Even in his book, which he wrote years before him being the leader, Hitler wrote that all jewish people must die...
Dont you understand? The reason why Hitler and the other nazis wanted to kill all jews where that they thoght that jewish money had supported the communist revolts who had ruined their contry. Of course they had wrong, its like saying that all Russians should be killed because they killed a lot of sweds in the great norse war. And that teory whit jewish money is also a lie, Hindenburg wanted to not be responsible for the catastrophe after the first world war.

Anyway what I wanted to say is that it is a reason. No one should wanted to kill anyone whitout reasons (exept for psycopatics). Hitler was not evil, no person is evil, he just had crazy ideas...
 
i think it would be great to have hitler in the game... not because i agree with what he did, not because i hate jewish people, but because he was hugely influencial... the very fact that we are all arguing over it is reason enough. yes it would be controvercial but there are very few ppl who share hitlers believes these days. id love to come up against hitler in a civ battle.. putting him in there doesnt mean he was good or bad at all but he was influencial... its not giving him recognition or publicity... i think there are far too many sensitive ppl out there who are taking this too seriously... this is a game after all. everyone knows about hitler and what he did and so having him in the game could quite possibly make it more personal for many ppl, make it more enjoyable plotting against him, savouring his every plee for mercy... im certain they wont put hitler in as a leader anyway..
 
So, You'r a good guy and Hitler is a bad guy?.

Plz, be honest.
How many times do you declare war in game?
How many times do you pillage cities in game?
How many times do you kill ppl in game?

Its a same thing as Hitler did.
He was a leader of German.
However, whom he was, it doesnt matter.
I hope those tree leaders would be included.
 
Prince Ares said:
Dont you understand? The reason why Hitler and the other nazis wanted to kill all jews where that they thoght that jewish money had supported the communist revolts who had ruined their contry. Of course they had wrong, its like saying that all Russians should be killed because they killed a lot of sweds in the great norse war. And that teory whit jewish money is also a lie, Hindenburg wanted to not be responsible for the catastrophe after the first world war.

Anyway what I wanted to say is that it is a reason. No one should wanted to kill anyone whitout reasons (exept for psycopatics). Hitler was not evil, no person is evil, he just had crazy ideas...
No, you dont understand. Hitler was a racist who wanted to kill all jews long before there was any communist attempts at Vimar. Hitler was an hate freak who wanted to conquer the world and kill all jews who come in his way. He used that jewish money thing only after he got the leading seat to make the people support he's ideas and doings.
 
Stalin was not exactly a total nutjob, he was able to dominate the vicious communist party in Soviet Union, have virtual control over the Army and spy networks. He also terrified Hitler, one of the reason why Germany went to war agaisnst Russia, he may be mad but theres a method to his madness.
 
Shaihulud said:
Stalin was not exactly a total nutjob, he was able to dominate the vicious communist party in Soviet Union, have virtual control over the Army and spy networks. He also terrified Hitler, one of the reason why Germany went to war agaisnst Russia, he may be mad but theres a method to his madness.

Yes! Stalin build up the first totalitarian state in history. His method of violence and terror against everbody, is a milestone in the development of surpression.
 
SpriteSODA said:
Hitler was a racist who wanted to kill all jews long before there was any communist attempts at Vimar.
Hitler was an hate freak who wanted to conquer the world and kill all jews who come in his way.

Of all the accurate and inaccurate contentions in this thread, I guess I'll comment on this one. No offence SpriteSoda (I prefer 7up!)
The communists were active in Germany before Hitler joined the Nazi Party.
Hitler was indeed a hate freak who wanted to conquer the world, but the Jewish thing was largely the result of the Nazis who were there before Hitler joined. eg: Himmler, Geobles, Rhone and Georing. Not to say Hitler wasn't driven by hate, he surely was! It's just that the anti-semitism was a Nazi thing, rather than specifically originating in Hitler. And again I point out the difference between Nazis and Germans...
 
That's settled then!

When the SDK is out, someone will MOD a Hitler leaderhead, and it will then be a personal choice if you include him (or Mao, or Stalin, or Genghis, etc,etc) or not.

This game is not about being PC (Slavery is a civic!!!), it is about being a strategy GAME!
 
5cats said:
Of all the accurate and inaccurate contentions in this thread, I guess I'll comment on this one. No offence SpriteSoda (I prefer 7up!)
The communists were active in Germany before Hitler joined the Nazi Party.
Hitler was indeed a hate freak who wanted to conquer the world, but the Jewish thing was largely the result of the Nazis who were there before Hitler joined. eg: Himmler, Geobles, Rhone and Georing. Not to say Hitler wasn't driven by hate, he surely was! It's just that the anti-semitism was a Nazi thing, rather than specifically originating in Hitler. And again I point out the difference between Nazis and Germans...
I dont say that the German are anti-semisims.
Anyway, I dont really care if Hitler was at the game, cus i would enjoy kicking his ass, but I dont think he will officially be at CIV.
 
SpriteSODA said:
No purpose. He conquered Poland, gathared all Jews to tiny camps for hundreds of thousands and then sent them by trains to be killed with gas.
He repeated it in his every moves, including murdurering the jews of Italy when he conquered it after mosolini's depart of the political map.
The only purpose of killing jews was killing jews.

Encouraging a sense of nationalism and industrializing his country, as well as using it to an economic advantage. I suppose you discredit these as viable purposes of which they are.
 
sgrig said:
Well, if you think that there is nothing undesirable or dangerous about an ideology which claims that one ethnicity is superior to another, then I pity you. :(

Funny, I seem to recall Americans saying continually they are "The most powerful people in the world" quite frequently. Oh wait... maybe you're right :p.
 
Chinetter said:
Everyone seems to be missing the actual point as far as leaders to be included for the game's civs, perhaps understandable given the unique degree of global noteriety that figures like Hitler, Stalin and Mao have and deserve.

With regard to the relative merits of different world leaders, the game is agnostic just as it is with religion. What matters is whether the given leader was successful in achieving longterm change of his/her society.

Obviously, Mao scores high in this regard. Stalin also scores higher than Hitler: the USSR lasted severall decades after Stalin's death and was for a long while a superpower, while Nazism as a governing philosophy/method in Germany died with Hitler. So to me it makes perfect sense that Mao is in the game's original release, and that Stalin would be included in an expansion without Hitler.

Except that during his rule Hitler was indeed higher in achievement than Stalin or Mao, the loss of such achievements as I've pointed out before is simply because Germany was the loser of the war and nothing more.
 
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