Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

[SenhorDaGuerra]

...verging on being a tad contraversial, but here goes anyway...

lets strip away these 3 leaders various qualities as leaders and focus on the human atrocities each of these men commited.

Stalin - killed many of his own people
Mao - killed many of his own people
Hitler - killed many Jews

(this is obviously simplified, so dont nitpick)

now, what makes it OK for Mao and Stalin to be in the game (i assume Stalin will be in the expansion based on screenies) but not Hitler. Because Hitler killed people who weren't of his ethnicity? What makes this worse that what Stalin or Mao did? And by the way, Stalin and Mao condemned far more people to Death that Hitler did. Stalin's 5 year plans cause tens of millions of deaths. Mao Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward caused unprecendented mass starvation, also in the tens of millions.

So, based on the criterion that Firaxis has presented us, I think Hitler is a worthy candidate to be included in the game. To me a human atrocity is a human atrocity whether its against your own people or against your neighbour and neither is "OK".

So, if Stalin and Mao are included, then Hitler should be aswell.

what does everyone think to my reasoning? logical thinking or am i being silly?

 

[Pasta_Man]

Yea, I was thinking the same thing. At the end of the day history is written by the victors, so apparently if you're a winner the slaughter of millions and millions of your own people due to your own spectacular paranoia is acceptable.

It's like that damn "soviet" clothing range... An incredibly brutal and evil regime that we were at odds with for decades can become a fashion statement. I suppose there is some irony in the fact that the clothes are part of a vast capitalist system, but it still sucks that if i brought out a range of clothes covered with Hitler quotes and swastikas for the sake of fashion i'd be shot down!

 

[Lillefix]

Stalin and mao were idealists, while Hitler was just evil.

 

[player1 fanatic]

It's because Hitler goal was to kill those people.
(planned genocide)

While two others had other goals, which had as "collateral" to kill of those people.

Which makes Hitler at least one circle of hell lower.

 

[Pasta_Man]

Mao and Stalin idealists? You must be as screwed in the head as they were! Stalin's purges just kinda happened didn't they? Not like he planned them to satisfy his own plans for staying in power at any cost.

Hitler was also an idealist. It just so happens that his ideals involved a world without Jews. It really amazes me how far people will go to try and defend scum like Stalin simply because western doctrine dictates that because they helped us they must be good.

 

[Tony Montana]

Stalin was chosen because he was fighting alongside the Allies during WWII. Despite the brutal murders that his regime was responsible for, it is inarguable that Russia played a key part in defeating Nazi Germany, and contributing to Allied success. It could even be argued that many Russians have looked upon Stalin as a formiddable wartime leader.

Mao was chosen because he is still looked up upon by many classes of Chinese society. It's common fact that many hold Mao in a positive light mainly due to his wartime duties. For example, fighting the Japanese invasion. While much of the Western world often reiterate many of Mao's mistakes, for example the slaughter of millions, we most not forget that is not what Mao is known for in Chinese society. It is his wartime record, and his ability to lead his country at the time of their greatest need.

Hitler is not in the game because it is widely accepted that this man was simply pure evil. There is a weak argument for Hitler as a liberator or whatever you want to call it. Stalin and Mao did many good things, as well as many bad things. Hitler only did bad things. Much of German society do not like Hitler anyway.

 

[Shaihulud]

Stalin and Mao are still somewhat figures of respect from their country of origin, or if not respeted at least they are accepted. Germany and many parts of Europe still haven't come to terms with Hitler yet, besides Hitler was really lousy and left Germany in a worst state than he got it.

 

[Iron Beagle]

In other words, Hitler is reviled more because he lost?

Oh, and IBTL - in before the lock, because I sense it coming.

 

[5cats]

It's because Hitler goal was to kill those people.
(planned genocide)
While two others had other goals, which had as "collateral" to kill of those people.

Stalin ran vast concentration camps in the 30's and quite deliberatly slaughtered millions. He too chose his victems from minority groups in the USSR; Mennonites, Ukranians, Jews mostly. After WW2 he slaughtered another million or so, of his own soldiers! Anyone who'd been captured by the enemy was rounded up and killed.

In the past many have tried to claim these 'Russian Holocosts' never happened, but after the break-up of the Soviet Union it was proven that it was even worse than the free world had imagined.

The French and USA also ran deathcamps in France for "Disarmed Enemy Soldiers" that killed over 1 million.

Furthermore, there is some evidence that Hitler wasn't even that concerned with the "Jewish Problem" & that Himmler, Gobbles & Georing were the true creators & engineers of the Holocost. NOT that that frees Hitler of guilt! He is of course as guilty as sin.

I do understand why Hitler is excluded since it would cause endless bad PR and controversy for Civ4. It would be nice to leave these other mass-murderers out as well, but life is inherently unfair.

 

[SilentDemon]

Stalin and mao were idealists, while Hitler was just evil.

I suppose you can substantiate the meaning of the word "evil" whereas no one else in the world can seem to?

 

[SilentDemon]

It's because Hitler goal was to kill those people.
(planned genocide)

While two others had other goals, which had as "collateral" to kill of those people.

Which makes Hitler at least one circle of hell lower.

Actually Hitlers primary goal was not to necessarily kill those people, but it was a very effective cause to help rally his countrymen to his other designs. (Using concentration camp workers for cheap labor for example.) So in that design, he would in fact be exactly the same... No?

 

[SilentDemon]

Stalin was chosen because he was fighting alongside the Allies during WWII. Despite the brutal murders that his regime was responsible for, it is inarguable that Russia played a key part in defeating Nazi Germany, and contributing to Allied success. It could even be argued that many Russians have looked upon Stalin as a formiddable wartime leader.

Mao was chosen because he is still looked up upon by many classes of Chinese society. It's common fact that many hold Mao in a positive light mainly due to his wartime duties. For example, fighting the Japanese invasion. While much of the Western world often reiterate many of Mao's mistakes, for example the slaughter of millions, we most not forget that is not what Mao is known for in Chinese society. It is his wartime record, and his ability to lead his country at the time of their greatest need.

Hitler is not in the game because it is widely accepted that this man was simply pure evil. There is a weak argument for Hitler as a liberator or whatever you want to call it. Stalin and Mao did many good things, as well as many bad things. Hitler only did bad things. Much of German society do not like Hitler anyway.

Actually Hitler did not only do bad things, go look into his biography. The truth is it's a matter of being PC, and the winners dictate how things should be. Let's face facts in the day and age where a movie (such as passion of the christ) can be blasted on the news by the outspoken of the Jewish populace it is obvious they have a more vocal base in America than do say the Chinese or Russians.

 

[SilentDemon]

In other words, Hitler is reviled more because he lost?

Oh, and IBTL - in before the lock, because I sense it coming.

That's about the jist of it.

 

[Raisin Bran]

Evil or not ------ killed own ppl or not ------ Hitler and Stalin should not be leaders in standard civ games. They should be there for a WW2 scenario. Too much contreversy

IMHO iI don't care as much for what they did, a lots of leaders did awful things throughout history. Just 2 ou 3 more dosen't seem that bad.

 

[The Omega]

Remember how there was all that fuss about the hot coffee mod in GTA? Well, if they stuck Hitler in the game, something like that would happen. It's not that they're refusing to put Hitler in the game because they don't like him, it's because they'll lose too much business.

 

[n0xie]

Hasn't this been discussed to death :s

 

[ULTIMATEGP]

Do you not remember that Mao and Stalin had been in power longer then Hitler. What if Hitler had been in power as long as them. I'm sure he would have killed more people.

 

[ULTIMATEGP]

Also Call of Duty 2 in the little documentary part where it gives you a background on the battle they have scenes of Hitler planning with his men.

 

[Olleus]

Hasn't this been discussed to death :s

yes it has. but some people have nothing better to do and simply can't agree to disagree. Pathetic really.

 

[Xanikk999]

I bet in 20-50 years from now hitler will not be such a sensitive issue and will be old history. Its just too recent still.