Starting advise

Romegypt

Your tank is now my tank!
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
121
Is this a good location? I started one tile east of my city. I figured settling on the plains hill was good, because it got the pigs, and the gold, as well as 2 silks for later.

I know it's not an amazing start, but it seemed alright, considering its my second prince game that I hope to win.

Plan right now is bronzeworking-hunting-animal husbandry-writing-agri-thewheel, and go from there. If I have horses, I'll do the wheel before agri.
 

Attachments

  • Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-20 13-18-35-857.jpg
    Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-20 13-18-35-857.jpg
    312.4 KB · Views: 278
(it helps to know your settings other than Prince difficulty)

Yep, absolutely the best move you could do based on what I see. Silks are irrelevant.

Your priority is AH here and I would go through Hunting since it is quicker. You start with mining so the worker will have things to do like mining gold. Always remember that food is your number one priority unless bad start techs/start position warrants something different based on number of idle worker turns.

BW likely next, but way to soon to lock into a definite tech path. That will come with more map knowledge. TW is likely next I suspect though - after AH>BW, and then you have both a line on Writing via AH or Pot (via fish/TW) without Agriculture, which is very dependent on resources nearby for other cities.

Lisbon is not a ideal Burea cap, depending on what you want to do with this game...probably just a good production city long term. If playing the long game, you can always relocate your Palace to a better Bureau spot like a captured capital with good river tiles.

(Note: Little trick to be aware off. Research is stored the first 5 turns of the game. During that time you can select/deselect a tech so as not to commit to a tech those first 5 turns in hopes of meeting AIs, which gives a bonus based on starting techs they know). The benefit is slightly less on Prince since AIs don't have any bonus techs (I think) but on the very high levels AIs start with most basic techs like Hunt/Mining/AG despite what those Civs default. Also, it lets you make a better decision based on more map knowledge.

For instance, right now Hunt looks good just based on speed, but in 5 turns you may find strong AG resources nearby that might make AG first (no Hunt) to get to AH better, and you may meet AIs that start with AG.
 
I ended up going hunting-animal-bronze.

No AG resources. Couldn't rush incas in time, as they were too far, and I made some mistakes in planning, and not being creative made it take to long to get the horses in my borders.
 

Attachments

  • Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-20 13-51-49-175.jpg
    Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-20 13-51-49-175.jpg
    456.6 KB · Views: 206
  • Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-20 13-51-11-065.jpg
    Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-20 13-51-11-065.jpg
    481.2 KB · Views: 218
  • 2nd prince.CivBeyondSwordSave
    2nd prince.CivBeyondSwordSave
    96.1 KB · Views: 167
Other settings- Standard size fractal. Fractal is the only nonstandard.
 
Looks like you're getting into a great position, one that is virtually impossible to lose from on Prince difficulty.

Some things I noticed:
  • Guimarães is working a 2:food: tile rather than a 3:food: 1:commerce: flood plain it could if it took that tile away from Oporto. Because its already size 5 and would go :mad: with 1 more population, the 1:food: 2:hammers: 1:commerce: unimproved elephant tile might be better, or the 3:hammers: forested plains hill, but also Ivory is about to be hooked up, giving +1:).
  • You have several libraries finished, but no scientists running. Ideally, you want to start 2 scientists at your first city with a finished library for the +6:gp: which will give a Great Scientist in 17 turns (9 if Philosophical). It's ok if it it's a bit later due to whipping and repopulating or to help quickly get another unit out, but generally you want to rush the first Great Scientist so that it can start an academy in your capital city for +50%:science:. After the GS finishes, you can move it to your capital (or highest :commerce: city), make the academy, and stop running scientists (or keep them for bulbing/golden ages later). You don't need to run scientists in other cities, especially if not Philosophical.
  • Your 2nd and 3rd cities are in nice spots, I might have chosen for one of them to be closer to the capital or each other. Sharing tiles is really nice, especially in the early stages of the game. Whipping, among various other reasons, makes it so a city can't or shouldn't work some strong improved tiles. When this happens, the nearby city can take the tile for a few turns. This helps cottages grow faster by always having a city working them.
  • You're adding a road to the Marble tile. The Marble tile is a river tile, so Marble is already hooked up to your empire. Your worker could be better spending its time adding cottages or other improvements, as you are working multiple unimproved tiles right now.
  • I believe you teched to Ironworks yourself? If you traded for it, good. If you teched it yourself, don't! It's a tech the AI always go for and in almost all cases you'd rather tech something else, then trade for it.
  • You're teching horseback riding. This is a bit of a slow tech, but not necessarily bad. It 100% means you have to be horse archer rushing the Inca though. If that was your plan, nice! Those cities are kind of far from your capital and could have high maintenance costs, but it looks like good land, plus the Great Wall wonder. If it wasn't, then you're wasting a lot of :science: that could be spent elsewhere, like Currency (great for building Wealth in cities and for the +1 :traderoute: per city, granting +1:commerce: each or better, depending on many factors).
  • Put your :espionage: points on just one opponent (should do immediately or shortly after meeting the civs). Generally put them on the one you think you'll be trading with the most that game and is hopefully close to you. This is so that you are able to steal a tech or two later in the game with spies or to cause a city revolt when your army is ready to take the city (this makes all defenses go to 0% for the turn without catapults/trebuchets/etc.). If you're about to kill Huayna Capac, don't put it on him. If you want to focus on improving your own tech and empire for a long while, then I'd put :espionage: on him, he seems to be doing better than Mehmed.
 
....and don't build archers
 
Played it for a bit till I got tired. City placement is okay.
Maybe should of gone BW first but went Hunting/AH/BW.
6 cities with a seventh due soon.
HBR and archery teched. Need to hook up horse and will probably rush Incas.
Grabbed Alphabet and took Monarchy from Oracle. Probably could of grabbed CS if I tried.

Overall in pretty good shape. Not sure I will continue this as AI is so slow here. If I didn't go HA I could easily do a phant attack here. I have some forest left to chop.
 

Attachments

In terms of your save.
Too much worker effort on roads.
Monuments to get border pop really speeds up the clams and fish.
Get those flood plain cottages up sooner.
Run 2 scientists in Guimeres. Are you using specialists yet?
I used capital as a settler pump. Hence your 3 cities behind me come 800bc.
No point avoiding Oracle here. It's pretty much a gimme with marble.
3rd city should of been fish city. 6f resource that could run gold whilst it built a monument.
 
(Note: Little trick to be aware off. Research is stored the first 5 turns of the game. During that time you can select/deselect a tech so as not to commit to a tech those first 5 turns in hopes of meeting AIs, which gives a bonus based on starting techs they know). The benefit is slightly less on Prince since AIs don't have any bonus techs (I think) but on the very high levels AIs start with most basic techs like Hunt/Mining/AG despite what those Civs default. Also, it lets you make a better decision based on more map knowledge.

For instance, right now Hunt looks good just based on speed, but in 5 turns you may find strong AG resources nearby that might make AG first (no Hunt) to get to AH better, and you may meet AIs that start with AG.

Also helps if you have huts :nono: enabled.
 
I actually went BW first, but only because of the leader traits (mostly IMP for cheap settlers, but also EXP due to easily chopped granaries at size1, so growing asap has less value) and gold (as I'm stagnating at size 1 chopping settlers/workers). Very non-standard.

T38
Spoiler :

BW-hunt-AH-wheel-pot-(writ). 4 workers already, guess I'll grab the horse spot and go take more cities. Oracle something definitely, maybe just currency as that will be very useful tech. Killed the ocean fish to the east, but could not care less. Guimaraes is a great city and doesn't need a border pop now, so can focus on the relevant builds.

Civ4ScreenShot0057.JPG

 
Yeah AH left my worker waiting. BW made sense here with imperialist trait and settler/worker production bonuses. Land is far from great here but enough war resources to make first attack easy. I wasn't quite sure on tech times on this level.
 
@Romegypt
Spoiler :
You can certainly crush Inca from your position, just produce enough HAs (10 should be easily enough) and some chariots. Archers won't help you in a horsie-war, chariots will. InovA made good points on where you can find improvement on your play. I will only add: expand to say 4-5 cities as fast as you can. City maintenance is very low on lower difficulty levels, so when there is a decent site to expand into, just do it. This often means you should chop all forests asap to settlers and workers.
 
Thank you all for your advise.

In relation to rushing- yes, I am going HA rush, but due to the late turn I am unsure as to whether or not I should.

And yes, I didn't think about trading for IW.

Didn't think about the river marble.

No, I totally forgot about specialists. Thank you! To clarify, I want them in the city that will be heavy research?

Are monuments really better than building libraries? I feel like it's best to just start a library. Is that wrong? If so, why?

Why mix in chariots with the HA?

Where to expand from here? I don't see any close City spots that are very good.
 
Last edited:
Ah..you know I did not even consider that you were playing as Joao, so Sampsa's idea on BW first makes sense in this case, and as I mentioned sometimes an alternate approach than the standard is recommended. Traits and starting techs can impact early decisions quite a bit. Regardless, it is still a good axiom to generally consider food first.

That plays a bit into the whole monument thing. In general, you want to avoid having to build Monuments or even teching Myst if possible, by making wise settling decisions. However, sometimes you have little choice when the seafood decides not to swim close to shore. Again, I will emphasize how FOOD is key to this game, so the simple answer to your question on the Monument for those seafood spots is that it is a faster way to get that food online.

In preparation for an HA war I often have built a chariot or two anyway waiting for the appropriate techs, as I have horses obviously. A couple don't hurt to have. One can become a good candidate for a Super Medic, and another maybe to catch the stray axeman should they exist. Maybe become a second medic or visi-scout. Plus, they are cheap.

Honestly, if you had horses up immediately, chariots would have likely been sufficient enough to at least take down HC earlier, although they were clearly not in a great position relative to sufficient food. Sometimes though I will just make the sacrifice on long term potential of a city just to get horses up asap, even settling on the resource itself.

Not looking at the map at present, and ideally you'd have settled a couple of more cities, but at this point you can focus directly on the war and gaining more cities that way for the time being. If I recall, you had quite a bit of jungle to the south - a lot of land really, so you can eventually settle that area based on relative resources. But focusing on joining the Incans to your glorious empire sounds like good short-term goal.

As for the scientists (specialists) your first goal is to get up a library, most likely in your capital, so that you can run scientists asap to produce your first GS. In many cases, you just create the Academy in your cap to boost short and long-term research based on the capital's likely cottage growth and Bureaucracy later. Lisbon is not a Bureau cap. If you have a good alternative (if I recall you had a coastal city SE of your cap with a lot of flood plains for cottages) you can create the Academy in that city and build the Palace there later. Another option is to bulb something like Mathematics, which while not technically an optimal thing in terms of beaker cost ROI, an early bulb of Maths does pay back in other ways like the boosted forest chops and trading it away for other techs like IW or Alpha, etc. I usually only do so if my leader is Philosophical, but I've done in cases where the immediate benefit of the Academy is not so great because of starting position like Lisbon (well, it does have the gold tile but otherwise not suited for cottage city). And on higher levels like Deity, that Maths bulb can sometimes really pay back sooner than later.

Other Libraries can go in commerce cities (cottages) but not every city necessarily needs one. High food cities are another good option to build a library since they can grow into the scientists, and you want to be able to run those scientists early in as many cities as feasibly possible relative to food and other resources.

800 BC is more than a reasonable date for an HA attack especially on prince. Just be cognizant of any metals HC might possess and look to rid him of it asap.

yes, IW is generally not something the Human will tech unless absolutely necessary. On high levels it is easy to trade for early. On low levels like Prince you may have to end up teching it yourself at some point depending on known AIs and their tech pace/willingness to trade, but it is still very much not a priority in most cases and you can usually hold out long enough just to trade for it.

With that said, I will mention a little bit about AI priority techs vs. optimal human tech pats. AIs are clearly coded to emphasize certain techs like Iron Working and, well, most military relevant techs (Feud, Construction, Machinery, Engineering). These are tech that if you have sufficient trade partners that you will always be able to eventually trade for them. Religious techs and Monarchy are often AI priorities too. So the point here is that the human techs around these items toward techs that are actually more beneficial to us anyway. AIs love Calendar as well.
 
Last edited:
On a more general note, you could do anything you like with this one.
Your land is great, places like double seafood + gold, or long river with floodplains, cow & marble are A+ locations.

Depends on your goals too, if you some day want to reach deity (i always wanted from day 1, but i also played deity in previous Civs ;)),
this map wouldn't really tempt me into HAs.
Too many strong "peace" cities possible, Ivory for Elepults, marble if looking at Cuirs via Literature + Glib and plenty bulbing, strong starting commerce to support those plans.

So how should i say..personally i see little value in rushing prince AIs with units that i should not use when they are a challenge.
Maybe the most time consuming learning curve while raising diff levels = playing the map, pretty famous quote.
With chariots, Axes, or HA rushes too here (thou they are great on other high level maps), i would say okay i played the difficulty level instead.
 
The thing is, it will not be 800 BC if I start prepping the rush now will it?
 
Don't worry. If you expand to good cities and work good tiles you will be far ahead of prince AI quickly. I don't know, maybe even 1AD horse archers are unstoppable on this level.
 
Back
Top Bottom