Starting Position

[Lord Parkin]

Workboat first, working the plains hill forest seems far and away the best opening with this start.

Yeah, I agree... we don't have any land food resources, so starting with the Work Boat will be a good idea. The question is, after the first Work Boat, do we go with another Work Boat -> Worker, or go straight to a Worker -> Work Boat? My guess is that the latter will be preferable, since we want to get the Gold hooked up ASAP.

So I'm tentatively voting for:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat at the present. When I have some time I'll do some tests to confirm whether this is the best opening.

 

[azzaman333]

From a very quick and totally unscientific test, we could hypothetically go work boat, work boat, warrior, and whip the first worker.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Urgh... I don't particularly like the idea of whipping our very first Worker. Should be able to build it quick enough with 2 improved Fish resources, in the case you mention above. But I have a (completely unscientific, as yet) feeling that building the Worker as our 2nd build will turn out better.

 

[Zjoekov]

So, this turn, I would settle in place first, then move the warrior 7 (NW) to move away from the coast and reveal more,

If the warrior is moved N on the hill, wouldn't it reveal more land and maybe part of the northerly coast?

 

[Trystero]

Not in this case because the hill is surrounded by forested tiles which reduce visibility to one tile.

 

[Zjoekov]

You're right. I took a closer look and there is an edge of forest visible beyond the northern tiles.

 

[azzaman333]

Urgh... I don't particularly like the idea of whipping our very first Worker. Should be able to build it quick enough with 2 improved Fish resources, in the case you mention above. But I have a (completely unscientific, as yet) feeling that building the Worker as our 2nd build will turn out better.

We'd be 1pop whipping the worker at size 3, so we'd still have 2 fish to work. We don't want to work the gold hills unless we're at pop capacity or building a settler.

The basic plan I used was workboat working the plains hill forest. After building the first workboat, work the fish and when we grow also work the plains hill forest, which gives 3 turns to grow to size three and 3 turns to build a warrior, and 4 turns to finish Bronze (if I didn't mess up the settings or the map). So build the warrior, grow to size three, start on the worker, and whip it once we learn bronze and can switch into slavery. Then wheel > pottery > ah > writing ideally.

 

[Trystero]

I'll also vote for settle in place.

So I'm tentatively voting for:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat at the present. When I have some time I'll do some tests to confirm whether this is the best opening.

My initial assessment is also work boat > worker might be better. I don't have much experience with World Builder, but a rolled a similar Willem start and tweeked it with World Builder a bit to resemble our start (sort of).

If we work the plains forest hill, we can get the WB in 6 turns (WB = 30/3 from PFH + 2 from the capital) and we could research Mining in 8 turns, but we'll be stagnant for that time.

I tested building another WB while working the PFH, followed by a Worker while working the improved coastal fish. I complete the Worker and finished researching BW (which I arbitrarily choose after Mining for test purposes) both on turn 21, but Amsterdam had been stagnant the entire game to that point.

If we instead build the Worker after the first WB (while switching to work the improved coastal fish), we finish the Worker in 9 turns (on turn 15). Switch back to working PFH tiles while the worker mines the gold and Amsterdam builds the next WB. In this case the second WB is finished on turn 21, but the gold is mined on turn 19, and switching to work the gold PH from the PFH on that turn gets us BW 1 turn faster (on turn 20). Amsterdam also will not have grown at all in this scenario.

In summary going WB > Worker > WB gets us the gold PH mined while the second WB is built. If we build the second WB first, it will improve a tile that we will not be able to work before the Worker is finished.

WB > Worker > WB looks better than WB > WB > Worker to me.

Caveat: I haven't looked at what effect substituting a Warrior is the queue might have.

Edit: I also haven't looked at Azzaman333's analysis yet, but I have to get up for work tomorrow so I won't have a chance tonight.

 

[azzaman333]

We wouldn't work the PHF for the 2nd work boat until size 2, allowing us to grow to size 3 by the time we start building the worker.

If anyone gets the chance, upload a test save to run these sorts of things through so we're all using the same settings with the tests.

 

[Trystero]

We wouldn't work the PHF for the 2nd work boat until size 2, allowing us to grow to size 3 by the time we start building the worker.

If anyone gets the chance, upload a test save to run these sorts of things through so we're all using the same settings with the tests.

Hmm... that might be OK. I will have to try your plan tomorrow (later today). I agree it would nice to have a test save.

 

[Trystero]

OK - I did a quick run through of Azzaman333's plan (WB > WB > Warrior > whip Worker) in my test game.

After the first WB I switched to working the coastal Fish while building the 2nd WB. Amsterdam grew to size 2 on turn 11 and I worked both the Fish and the PFH. The 2nd WB was finished on turn 15. The Warrior was finished 3 turns later, coinciding with the growth to size 3. BW was finished on the next turn (t19), and I revolted into Slavery and started the Worker.

I wasn't able to whip the Worker until turn 22 (for 1 pop + 14 ). The overflow would let us build another Warrior in 1 turn.

So in this approach we would have an additional Warrior and some city growth in exchange for not having the gold hooked up (In my test it won't be mined until t28).

Edit: really going to bed now. Sorry if I missed something obvious.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I still think getting the Golds hooked up and worked ASAP is the best plan, and Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat probably gets us that fastest. The commerce boost from working both Gold tiles is enormous, and almost triples our initial research rate. We should thus aim to get them both hooked up and worked as fast as physically possible.

Unfortunately I may not have time to properly test the optimum opening until after the weekend, but when I do, I'll definitely upload a test save for everyone else to play around with too.

 

[Irgy]

Some micro for the first few turns. Somebody needs to check my working though as I am prone to error with these things. The format should be self explanatory, I give key turns, the total amount of stuff produced after those turns, and then the amount produced per turn until the next key turn. I don't count the 9 commerce you get for free from the palace and starting tile. In all of these options, the first warrior comes very late. Someone might like to analyse the costs of building a warrior earlier. It will affect different options by different amounts.

A: Worker -> Workboat

1: Worker, work whatever
. 0
. +5 hammers
4: Work silk
. 15 hammers
. +5 hammers +1 commerce
13: Worker finished, switch to workboat, work the phf
. 60 hammers 9 commerce
. +5 hammers
17: Gold improved, switch to gold
. 80 hammers 9 commerce
. +5 hammers +8 commerce
19: Workboat complete. Switch to whatever
. 90 hammers, 25 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
20: -
5 food, 92 hammers, 28 commerce
At this point it's clearly inferior to workboat->worker. For 2 extra worker turns that we don't have a particular use for, we lose 15 food, 9 hammers and 11 commerce. We don't have enough food to work the second gold anyway, and if we chop half a forest with those 2 worker turns we're still clearly behind.


B: Workboat -> Worker

1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Switch to worker, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +7 hammers, +3 commerce
16: Worker complete, switch to warrior
. 93 hammers, 27 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers +3 commerce
20: Grow to 2, gold finished, work gold and fish
. 20 food, 101 hammers, 39 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
21: Warrior built. Revolt to slavery (note: actually better to do this after second workboat)
. 23 food, 106 hammers, 50 commerce
. +0
22: Switch to workboat
. 23 food, 106 hammers, 50 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
27: -
. 38 food, 131 hammers, 105 commerce

C: Workboat -> Wrow -> Worker

1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Switch to warrior, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
11: Grow to 2. Switch to worker. Work fish and silk.
. 20 food, 38 hammers, 12 commerce
. +8 hammers, +4 commerce
19: Worker finished. Switch back to warrior, working fish and pfh
. 20 food, 102 hammers, 44 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
20: Warrior built. Revolt to slavery
. 23 food, 107 hammers, 47 commerce
. +0
21: Build workboat
. 23 food, 107 hammers, 47 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
23: Gold improved, work fish and gold
. 29 food, 117 hammers, 53 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
27: Workboat built
. 41 food, 137 hammers, 97 commerce


D: Workboat -> Grow -> Whip Worker
NOTE: This assumes bronze working available at turn 15 from a total of 159 beakers. This is almost certainly not possible. Note also that if it was possible, then option E could be improved by revolting while the second workboat travels to the fish.

1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Switch to warrior, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
11: Grow to 2. Switch to worker
. 20 food, 38 hammers, 12 commerce
. +8 hammers, +3 commerce
15: Revolt to slavery
. 20 food, 70 hammers, 24 commerce
. +0
16: Whip worker
. 0 food, 100 hammers, 24 commerce
. +5 hammers, +3 commerce
17: Worker built, switch to warrior, still working fish
. 105 hammers, 27 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
18: Warrior finished, switch to workboat
. 5 food, 107 hammers, 30 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
21: Grow to size 2. Gold improved. Work fish and gold
. 20 food, 113 hammers, 39 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
26: Workboat finished, switch to warrior
. 29 food, 138 hammers, 94 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
27: -
. 32 food, 143 hammers, 103 commerce


E: Workboat -> Workboat -> Whip Worker
1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Second workboat, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
11: Grow to size 2, work pfh
. 20 food, 38 hammers, 12 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
16: Workboat complete. Switch to warrior
. 35 food, 63 hammers, 27 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
17: Fish improved, work both fish
. 38 food, 68 hammers, 30 commerce
. +8 food, +2 hammers, +4 commerce
18: Grow to size 3, switch to worker
. 46 food, 70 hammers, 34 commerce
. +11 hammers, +4 commerce
21: Revolt to slavery
. 46 food, 103 hammers, 50 commerce
. +0
22: Whip worker
. 22 food, 133 hammers, 50 commerce
. +10 hammers, +4 commerce
23: Worker built, switch to warrior
. 22 food, 143 hammers, 54 commerce
. +8 food, +2 hammers, +4 commerce
24: Warrior built. Another warrior
. 30 food, 145 hammers, 58 commerce
. +8 food, +2 hammers, +4 commerce
26: Grow to size 3, work silk
. 46 food, 147 hammers, 66 commerce
. +8 food, +3 hammers, +5 commerce
27: Gold improved, second warrior finished
. 54 food, 150 hammers, 71 commerce


Summary after 27 turns:
A is strictly worse than B
B 38 food, 131 hammers, 105 commerce, first warrior turn 21
C 41 food, 137 hammers, 97 commerce, first warrior turn 20
D is unfortunately probably impossible
E 54 food, 150 hammers, 71 commerce, first warrior turn 24

It looks like a trade off between food/hammers and commerce. I'd be inclined towards the food/hammers of E. The only trouble with E is the first warrior is very late, and building one any time earlier holds the worker and therefore the gold commerce up by probably another 3 turns.

 

[Lord Parkin]

At a glance your working seems okay, except I don't know why you include a revolt to Slavery in all of the options - even when we're not whipping. There is absolutely no use in revolting to Slavery if we're not using the whip. We're better off waiting to revolt until we want to do our first whip, and keeping the early turns free of Slavery.

 

[fed1943]

IMO, settle on place, work the plains/hills/forest, build two workboats (for food and city grow)
then worker and warrior, research mining and bronze.

 

[Irgy]

At a glance your working seems okay, except I don't know why you include a revolt to Slavery in all of the options - even when we're not whipping. There is absolutely no use in revolting to Slavery if we're not using the whip. We're better off waiting to revolt until we want to do our first whip, and keeping the early turns free of Slavery.

For the sole reason that at the end of 27 turns each option is running slavery. It may indeed not be a wise choice, but this way the comparison is fairer.

Also though, if we're going to use slavery eventually (and I think we will), then it is generally more efficient to revolt while you're waiting for a worker to improve a tile, or for a workboat or settler to travel. Basically, you will lose 1 turn globally at some point revolting to slavery, but when you do the workers are still working and units still moving. So choosing when to revolt is choosing when you want to get a free turn on all your units. This is why I revolt specifically while improving the gold in a couple of cases, as it's basically 8 commerce for nothing compared with revolting at a later time when you don't need the worker turns for anything.

This doesn't account for the other option of waiting until hereditary rule (or, more rarely, organised religeon) and saving a turn of anarchy by doing two together though.

 

[GoSkins]

We should try to time the worker with mining. That is, research different tech(s) while building the workboat(s). Then build the worker while researching mining - try to get worker on Gold on the same turn that mining is done.

 

[azzaman333]

We should try to time the worker with mining. That is, research different tech(s) while building the workboat(s). Then build the worker while researching mining - try to get worker on Gold on the same turn that mining is done.

That delays Bronze Working = bad idea. Gotta know where the copper is.

It looks like a trade off between food/hammers and commerce. I'd be inclined towards the food/hammers of E. The only trouble with E is the first warrior is very late, and building one any time earlier holds the worker and therefore the gold commerce up by probably another 3 turns.

2 of our opponents start with scouts instead of warriors, so that wouldn't really worry me.

I've also uploaded a test save that I believe is accurate (at least for the BFC

 

[champinoman]

Heh... just had a thought. You know what would be funny? If this start was an April Fools' joke, and then the real one was much less shiny.

I'm sorry, but this comment is too hard to look past right now. I'll be back tomorrow when I feel I'm not gonna be fooled by double gold.

 

[azzaman333]

From my calculation, we can build 2 work boats, 2 warriors and a worker, and be working both fish and a gold by the end of turn 27 (starting from turn 0), with the first warrior built at turn 17 and bronze researched on turn 19.