Starting Position

[BLubmuz]

But you forget that chops are a huge priority. Otherwise, our Worker will have nothing to do after hooking up the Golds. Moreover, without chops we won't have much of a shot at any early wonders we might want, and/or our Settler and other builds will be slowed down from what they could have been.

I forget nothing!
Our worker will road the path for the settler, then he can chop it, or he can chop the library with a great advantage, since every chopped hammer doubles for us!!!

I've tried some variations.
The best seems to be:
WB, research mining
start WB until size2, switch to worker, finish mining, start wheel
mine gold, work it for the last turn of the WB, then move to 2 fishes
Hunting (but i can see your point on that, so we can skip it) AH Writing, build 2 warriors, use the free one as a scout.

What if we have a 3rd seafood in the fog?
I must also compare the benefits of skipping the wheel until Writing and BW are researched.

But since mining will be for sure the first tech and we can know what we have in BFC only after the actual game start, i'll wait 'til then to run more accurate tests.

For now, i suppose we agree on WB first and mining first, so we're plenty of time to simulate.

It's really too soon to talk about the Colossus, but usually i never build it with a financial leader.
It gives +1gold for each water tile, but 3 instead of 2 is a +50%, 4 instead of 3 is a +33%.
You must add that to compensate the hammers invested, you must work lots of waters tiles.

Is a thing to build to negate it to the opponents, if you have nothing better to do. And possibly not in Capital.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I forget nothing!
Our worker will road the path for the settler, then he can chop it, or he can chop the library with a great advantage, since every chopped hammer doubles for us!!!

Sure, but only while building the Library. The bonus multiplier isn't carried over to any of the next builds. Still, it'd be great for getting out a quick Library.

What if we have a 3rd seafood in the fog?

That would be quite insane. But seriously, unless the other resource is a coastal Fish, I don't think we need to worry about it until we get to at least size 5. Certainly building more than two Work Boats before a Settler will probably not be as efficient as building the Settler before the third Work Boat. That's just a guess, mind you. Anyway, I think hoping for any more seafood resources might be a bit much. But we'll see.

It's really too soon to talk about the Colossus, but usually i never build it with a financial leader.
It gives +1gold for each water tile, but 3 instead of 2 is a +50%, 4 instead of 3 is a +33%.

Actually, ocean tiles with a Financial leader without the Colossus give 1 commerce (not two). Ocean tiles with a Financial leader with the Colossus give 3 commerce (a +200% bonus). But otherwise, yes, your analysis is correct. I agree that the Colossus isn't a hugely important wonder, but it's extremely cheap and worth building if we get the chance. It's too soon to start thinking about it though.

You must add that to compensate the hammers invested, you must work lots of waters tiles.

Colossus is exceptionally cheap though, especially if you have Copper. Add to that that the Forge is a building you want anyway in pretty much every city, and it only makes it easier to build. To me, the main problem with the Colossus is it comes with an expensive tech (for the early game).

 

[azzaman333]

• 1) Agreed
• 2) True, but it's a waste of worker turns, mainly at Normal Speed being on a hill to mine and go back to build a road. 4 turns instead of 3.
• 3) after writing and BW. No whipping without granary. And we need those extra pop for an early Academy
• 4) Sure, but this shows we can do better Hunting is a prerequisite for AH and researching it will save roughly 1.5 turns on AH, making Hunting cost some 2.5 turns
• 5) Agreed

See above. We want it at size 6, with library and granary. And possibly always a Scientist at work. Preferably 2.

2- While it's a waste of worker turns, it's not always beneficial to avoid wasting them.
3- Or, we could whip a granary and the library, and then work the high commerce once we've got the infrastructure up from whipping.
4- I'd take the 2.5 extra turns on AH to be able to continue building warriors.

 

[grant2004]

Maybe we should discuss what our priority should be, the Great Lighthouse, or a great scientist? I see both of these options as very beneficial for us. There is no doubt that our capital will be a powerful research city, and an academy would be a huge boost to our already considerable early game tech rate. We're also certain to have a number of coastal cities, so that we can take advantage of our dikes late game. The Great Lighthouse would give these cities an added bonus all the way up to the time we can build dikes.

The Great Lighthouse however can be taken by other civs if we aren't agressive enough in constructing it. Therefore I would urge an agressive push for this wonder, a scientist can be developed afterwards.

 

[AlphaShard]

Yeah, I agree... we don't have any land food resources, so starting with the Work Boat will be a good idea. The question is, after the first Work Boat, do we go with another Work Boat -> Worker, or go straight to a Worker -> Work Boat? My guess is that the latter will be preferable, since we want to get the Gold hooked up ASAP.

So I'm tentatively voting for:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat at the present. When I have some time I'll do some tests to confirm whether this is the best opening.

If we haven't started the actions yet I think this line seems good to me.

I actually contemplated moving the settler off the hill and up one square to take full advantage of hills for production. That would take us away from that nice shiny gold though. Building a work boat first will also allow our city to grow and use more tiles.

Edit:
I worked on the save a little trying out to see what I could do. By the date on the save I got both gold and fishes hooked up and the worker ready to start cranking out Cottages. The city had just finished building a Granary and was at level four, though perhaps it should have built a settler first.

I also teched The Wheel, Mining, Hunting, BW and Pottery. I didn't revolt to Slavery.

 

[azzaman333]

Maybe we should discuss what our priority should be, the Great Lighthouse, or a great scientist? I see both of these options as very beneficial for us. There is no doubt that our capital will be a powerful research city, and an academy would be a huge boost to our already considerable early game tech rate. We're also certain to have a number of coastal cities, so that we can take advantage of our dikes late game. The Great Lighthouse would give these cities an added bonus all the way up to the time we can build dikes.

The Great Lighthouse however can be taken by other civs if we aren't agressive enough in constructing it. Therefore I would urge an agressive push for this wonder, a scientist can be developed afterwards.

I'd rather focus on REX. Land = power.

 

[AlphaShard]

So then we should get a second city founded by 2600-2500 bc ? In that case it's the rivers and coast we should make sure to found near. If this is a balanced map I am sure iron, copper, and horses are near.

 

[pindicator]

I'd rather focus on REX. Land = power.

I second this.

In fact, although I like the idea of a relatively quick library & academy, I don't think either should be done before the first settler. Maybe that is a consensus view but there's been a lot more talk about libraries and specialists than there have been about when our first settler is going to be finished.

And then there is the question of when we should build the first settler. Obviously that depends on what is outside the fog, but I would rather see us build it sooner than later. at worst we could make use of the plentiful forests surrounding our capital.

Edit: Alphashard, somehow i missed your post. Are you proposing workboat -> worker -> workboat -> settler?

 

[AlphaShard]

Edit: Alphashard, somehow i missed your post. Are you proposing workboat -> worker -> workboat -> settler?

I think that would be a good work order there, it should get a Settler out in the mid 2000's bc. It will take a little while to get to Writing and Libraries so I am sure we'll probably have three cities going before any libraries start being built.

Should we bother with Scouts? Actually huts are off aren't they? So we can pretty much forget teching Hunting for awhile. Unless were worried that Cyrus is near us.

 

[azzaman333]

Warriors to fog bust are a necessity.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I actually contemplated moving the settler off the hill and up one square to take full advantage of hills for production. That would take us away from that nice shiny gold though. Building a work boat first will also allow our city to grow and use more tiles.

You don't start taking advantage of that one extra hill until about 100 turns into the game, though (if not more). Thus it's FAR better to have the extra 1 hammer per turn for the whole game than get an extra 3 hammers per turn a hundred or more turns down the track.

 

[BLubmuz]

You don't start taking advantage of that one extra hill until about 100 turns into the game, though (if not more). Thus it's FAR better to have the extra 1 hammer per turn for the whole game than get an extra 3 hammers per turn a hundred or more turns down the track.

Even if less than 100 turns, you'll lose the 2nd gold.
I suppose we'll switch to Bureau ASAP and this will be a huge loss.

Settle in place
work boat
mining

this is the task for the early 5 turns.

To discuss what to do after this we must know at least our BFC and the closest surroundings.

I suppose the active player will be LP for those 5 turns.
Is he officially our (fearless) Leader?
Do we need to vote or else?

 

[pindicator]

work boat
mining

this is the task for the early 5 turns.

To discuss what to do after this we must know at least our BFC and the closest surroundings.

That's true, there isn't much else we can aim for without knowing the lay of the land first. The only other thing I would add is that I would be thinking about BW due to

• opening visibility on copper
• lots of forests nearby, even if they aren't in BFC

 

[AlphaShard]

BW won't be ignored we just need prioritize our techs and builds. Should we start a thread for who is going to start this and when do we start?

 

[BLubmuz]

My proposal is:

Settle in place
build WB
research mining

I suppose we all agree on the above. If not, please post.

Once the first turn is played, we'll know all the BFC and more, given that the warrior is 2N of the settler and can go N, NE or NW to reveal more. Sure a 3rd WB can arrive later (long after the first Settler) if there's more seafood, but is pointless discuss now.

After that i'll try more tests to find the optimal path for research and builds until 2000 BC or so.

We can define a short-mid term strategy before mining is finished and a mid-long term strategy after BW.
The big plan will be discussed once we'll know more about the place we are.

 

[grant2004]

I agree to that early plan, that will cover 6 turns of the game, during which time we'll gain more information about our surroundings. Whichever way we end up going that start plan will lay a strong foundation for us.

 

[Trystero]

My proposal is:

Settle in place
build WB
research mining

I suppose we all agree on the above. If not, please post.

I also agree with this initial course of action. (Especially since both my test games started this way )

I also agree that REXing might be a priority. I am almost certain this will be a priority if we are anywhere near Team AMAZON. What else would Cyrus be used for but REX?

 

[Trystero]

I think that would be a good work order there, it should get a Settler out in the mid 2000's bc. It will take a little while to get to Writing and Libraries so I am sure we'll probably have three cities going before any libraries start being built.

Should we bother with Scouts? Actually huts are off aren't they? So we can pretty much forget teching Hunting for awhile. Unless were worried that Cyrus is near us.

I have two concerns with the WB > Worker > WB opening followed immediately by building a settler:

1. Early settlers are nice, but surely we'll need warriors, if for nothing else but to escort the settler.

2. Getting out the first WB quickly means working the PFH tile, which means stagnation. Following that with a Worker and a Settler so soon doesn't leave much time for population growth (depending what tiles are worked for the second WB).

Again, it's impossible to say what the best course of action is until the game is underway, but I'd think we'd want early pop growth both to work the gold tiles and for whipping in an emergency (supposing we research BW early).

 

[pindicator]

Which way do we move the starting warrior anyway? Considering it looks like all forest tiles bleeding out of the fog there doesn't seem any advantage to going onto the hill. So either NE or NW.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Settle in place
work boat
mining

Sounds like a plan to me. That just leaves discussing the movement of the Warrior for these initial turns.

I suppose the active player will be LP for those 5 turns.
Is he officially our (fearless) Leader?
Do we need to vote or else?

I'm happy to act as "leader"/turn player for the initial turns, unless anyone else is also keen on the job?

I also agree that REXing might be a priority. I am almost certain this will be a priority if we are anywhere near Team AMAZON. What else would Cyrus be used for but REX?

Uh... rushing a nearby rival with Immortals?

I have two concerns with the WB > Worker > WB opening followed immediately by building a settler:

1. Early settlers are nice, but surely we'll need warriors, if for nothing else but to escort the settler.

2. Getting out the first WB quickly means working the PFH tile, which means stagnation. Following that with a Worker and a Settler so soon doesn't leave much time for population growth (depending what tiles are worked for the second WB).

Those are valid concerns, but I think our plan is still the optimal way of playing the opening. Getting all our main tiles (2 Fish and 2 Gold) up and running ASAP is key. Don't worry though - I'm sure we'll get several of those Warriors built as we grow to size 4-5 prior to building our first Settler.

Which way do we move the starting warrior anyway? Considering it looks like all forest tiles bleeding out of the fog there doesn't seem any advantage to going onto the hill. So either NE or NW.

My vote goes for NW at the moment, although it's really fairly arbitrary to me.