Starting Position

[fed1943]

I would like to correct my own post:
Build workboat, but working the fish until grow; then work the hills and fish; build 2nd workboat,
worker,warrior.

 

[GoSkins]

That delays Bronze Working = bad idea. Gotta know where the copper is.

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

I think we agree that the Workboat should be the first build. Then if we build a worker without mining, our worker is left with nothing to do but <term snipped>. Turns wasted.

BTW, please provide reasoning in your posts from now on...that's kinda the point of this game...you know...discussion...

Edit: I realize you're Australian so for translation <term snipped>

 

[Trystero]

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

Rather than copper, the reason I usually choose to tech BW early (and did so in my test games) is Slavery. It is one of the best ways to boost early production, especially since we have enough food to grow back quickly and gold to help boost happiness. That said, we probably want to avoid Slavery/whipping until necessary, so we can work the gold tiles as much as possible. (Also, although I don't think we'll get axe-rushed, someone did take Cyrus. )

Thanks for the test save Azzaman333!

 

[wabatt]

Heres is a world builder I made if anybody wants to experiment/test the first turns
Edit: Sorry azzaman not trying to 1-up ya didn't see yours before post

 

[Irgy]

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

I think we agree that the Workboat should be the first build. Then if we build a worker without mining, our worker is left with nothing to do but jerk off. Turns wasted.

BTW, please provide reasoning in your posts from now on...that's kinda the point of this game...you know...discussion...

Edit: I realize you're Australian so for translation <term snipped>

There is no way of building the worker faster than we could research mining if we go mining first. There's no point not researching mining first, because there's nothing we need more urgently than mining anyway. Other than bronze working, which mining is the pre-req for. So we can safely assume that by the time the worker is ready we'll have mining.

Unless you have an alternate line of techs you think we should follow first? It will have a hard time competing with chopping, revealing copper, whipping and of course not delaying the worker through late mining though

PS We know what <term snipped> means here in Australia.

From my calculation, we can build 2 work boats, 2 warriors and a worker, and be working both fish and a gold by the end of turn 27 (starting from turn 0), with the first warrior built at turn 17 and bronze researched on turn 19.

That pretty much matches my calculations. What you've done would be my option E, with the modification of spending a turn finishing off the warrior before starting on the worker.

The only down side of that is we get noticably less commerce than some other methods, but I still think it might be better.

One option I'd like to consider is B modified for an earlier warrior, which is basically:
workboat -> grow+warrior -> worker -> (workboat/warriors).

An earlier warrior is good for exploration even if we don't need to worry about defending the capital.

 

[azzaman333]

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

I think we agree that the Workboat should be the first build. Then if we build a worker without mining, our worker is left with nothing to do but <term snipped>. Turns wasted.

BTW, please provide reasoning in your posts from now on...that's kinda the point of this game...you know...discussion...

Edit: I realize you're Australian so for translation <term snipped>

Because we also want Slavery ASAP. Mining > Bronze Working is the best tech path because,

• It's too early to build a lighthouse, ruling out Sailing.
• We don't need to hook up the gold right away for , so the Wheel isn't necessary (although I would probably recommend it after Bronze)
• We won't be working cottages at first since we have 2 gold tiles, so Pottery can be delayed a little.
• There's no camp resources, so hunting isn't needed. Also, unless we meet Persia early, we won't want hunting since we won't be able to build warriors for cheap HR s.
• Building wonders too early will hurt our all important REX, so no need for Masonry or Mysticism at first.

I think I covered all the options.

That pretty much matches my calculations. What you've done would be my option E, with the modification of spending a turn finishing off the warrior before starting on the worker.

The only down side of that is we get noticably less commerce than some other methods, but I still think it might be better.

One option I'd like to consider is B modified for an earlier warrior, which is basically:
workboat -> grow+warrior -> worker -> (workboat/warriors).

An earlier warrior is good for exploration even if we don't need to worry about defending the capital.

I don't think we really need the extra commerce at that point. We'll have the techs to improve our resources, and be able to whip. When we grow to size 4 and work the 2 gold, we can REX and still research quickly.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Also though, if we're going to use slavery eventually (and I think we will), then it is generally more efficient to revolt while you're waiting for a worker to improve a tile, or for a workboat or settler to travel. Basically, you will lose 1 turn globally at some point revolting to slavery, but when you do the workers are still working and units still moving. So choosing when to revolt is choosing when you want to get a free turn on all your units. This is why I revolt specifically while improving the gold in a couple of cases, as it's basically 8 commerce for nothing compared with revolting at a later time when you don't need the worker turns for anything.

You miss the fact that later on, we'll have more Workers that can work during a revolt. And while it's very likely that we'll want to use Slavery at some point, it's not guaranteed that we'll need it prior to another civic switch (e.g. Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion, or Representation). And a turn of anarchy is a turn of lost production and research. Thus we shouldn't be switching into Slavery, IMHO, until immediately prior to the turn we wish to use it.

 

[Methos]

Excellent start, assuming its not an April Fool's joke. Haven't read the full thread yet. I jumped to the end when I feared this was a joke...

 

[champinoman]

You miss the fact that later on, we'll have more Workers that can work during a revolt. And while it's very likely that we'll want to use Slavery at some point, it's not guaranteed that we'll need it prior to another civic switch (e.g. Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion, or Representation). And a turn of anarchy is a turn of lost production and research. Thus we shouldn't be switching into Slavery, IMHO, until immediately prior to the turn we wish to use it.

Even though later in the game there are more workers to complete their jobs in revolt wouldn't the losses in terms of research and hammers be greater due to the larger size of the city?

And with the proposal to get a GS asap and work both gold tiles there is a chance that we wont need slavery until a 2nd civic change is needed so combining them would be worthwhile.

P.S. Dave tried to wreck our fun by not knowing what he snipped, but he missed 1

 

[GoSkins]

Thanks for all the replys. Some good logic there. Didnt think about slavery - with those 2 fish we could replenish population pretty quickly so slavery could be good.

An alternate tech route would be to start going for writing. So, while we build work boat(s) research prerequisite for writing (like the wheel or pottery), then while building the worker, research mining. I think writing will be nice for a library once we have those 2 gold hooked up.

PS. Didnt mean to write anything that would be "snipped" so my apologies if I offended anyone

 

[azzaman333]

Even though later in the game there are more workers to complete their jobs in revolt wouldn't the losses in terms of research and hammers be greater due to the larger size of the city?

And with the proposal to get a GS asap and work both gold tiles there is a chance that we wont need slavery until a 2nd civic change is needed so combining them would be worthwhile.

With 2 fish, why wouldn't we want to be whipping ASAP in our capital?

Thanks for all the replys. Some good logic there. Didnt think about slavery - with those 2 fish we could replenish population pretty quickly so slavery could be good.

An alternate tech route would be to start going for writing. So, while we build work boat(s) research prerequisite for writing (like the wheel or pottery), then while building the worker, research mining. I think writing will be nice for a library once we have those 2 gold hooked up.

That should be our 2nd priority. But Bronze is more immediately important.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Bronze should probably be our first priority (the combination of chops + potential Slavery + potential Copper is just too good), but Writing should certainly be high on the list too. Getting a Library and two Scientists running ASAP will be vital, and our Creative trait making Libraries half-price only makes things all the more sweet.

 

[GoSkins]

I could go either way, but I think if we go BW we should focus more on military builds after that so we can go conquer our first as victim early as possible.

Chops: I see 5 total forests in our fat cross. The 2 forest on a hill and the resource are obvious chops. The other 2 I'm not sure of since they dont have access to fresh water. Maybe it's better to put lumbermills there. What are you guys thinking we put there? Cottages?

Slavery: I could go either way on this one, but it seems like with all that food slavery is a pretty good choice. I like to switch 2 civics at once though so as to not waste another turn of anarchy.

Copper: Doesnt seem like we have it in our capital (due to having many other resources). So this would help for knowing where next to settle. Actually, I think Iron Working for this purpose would be better.

I dunno...half price librarys + 2 gold resources is hard to beat

 

[BLubmuz]

Noticed this... hmmm

Settle in place
WB-Worker-Warrior-WB

Research:
- Wheel-Mining
- Hunting-AH-Writing
- BW

Researching Writing before BW will give us the time to build our cheap library to grow our first GS, while growing enough for the second settler.

I suppose our expansion will be forced West and North, being ice in the South.

 

[BLubmuz]

I like to switch 2 civics at once though so as to not waste another turn of anarchy.

Sure, we need to take advantage of a 2 civics for any change. If possible.

Copper: Doesnt seem like we have it in our capital (due to having many other resources). So this would help for knowing where next to settle. Actually, I think Iron Working for this purpose would be better.

I dunno...half price librarys + 2 gold resources is hard to beat

Please remember this is an edited map, thus anything is possible.

 

[fed1943]

I had some free time, so I made a little math (counting on my fingers).
While worker soon looks tasty, it isn't the best because we cannot work any gold before the fish, lest no grow.

So, I counted for workboat,workboat,worker.
First work phf until done (6T); then change pop to fish and build 2nd workboat; grow at 11T; work fish and phf and go on wb; workboat done at 15T; begin something,warrior perhaps,to wait for grow; at 18T build worker;worker done at 24T.
So, we have now 3 pop, 2 developed fish, 1 worker, half warrior, and amassed more then 350 commerce.

About research, after mining, wheel then BW. I know BW is more important than wheel
but here wheel is more urgent. We need 6th pop to work 2 fish, 2 gold, first phf and silk then 2 scientists. Not many chops here. And whip, right now what? The first 4 tiles are too good to lose,while temporary, their pop. To discover copper,sure; but not
so urgent IMHO, as only the seetler needs to know about.

 

[BLubmuz]

Your reasoning about what to work is correct, but we must run some simulation on what gives us the best results.

BW is not a priority, since if we have it in BFC, great, otherwise we need to locate the copper only when we're almost done with the first settler.

If we consider writing a priority, with WHEEL as the only diversion, we'll gain a 25% research with our *cheap* library over any further tech.
Even the wheel can be discussed, depending on where we'll place the worker.

I can run some simulation reproducing the starting position, the i'll give my report.
We surely need a lot of MM.

 

[T. Claudius]

Considering that we are not Industrious and don't have any stone we might want to use the chops for the Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse.

The prerequisite techs for the GL are Sailing and Masonry. We start with fishing, and plan to research mining so in the long term a research path might be Mining>BW>Masonry>Sailing, with Wheel somewhere in there? BW is also good because it enables Metal Casting for the Colossus.

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious to the more advanced players, but this is just something thing to keep in mind for the future.

 

[BLubmuz]

Because we also want Slavery ASAP. Mining > Bronze Working is the best tech path because,

• 1) It's too early to build a lighthouse, ruling out Sailing.
• 2) We don't need to hook up the gold right away for , so the Wheel isn't necessary (although I would probably recommend it after Bronze)
• 3) We won't be working cottages at first since we have 2 gold tiles, so Pottery can be delayed a little.
• 4) There's no camp resources, so hunting isn't needed. Also, unless we meet Persia early, we won't want hunting since we won't be able to build warriors for cheap HR s.
• 5) Building wonders too early will hurt our all important REX, so no need for Masonry or Mysticism at first.

• 1) Agreed
• 2) True, but it's a waste of worker turns, mainly at Normal Speed being on a hill to mine and go back to build a road. 4 turns instead of 3.
• 3) after writing and BW. No whipping without granary. And we need those extra pop for an early Academy
• 4) Sure, but this shows we can do better Hunting is a prerequisite for AH and researching it will save roughly 1.5 turns on AH, making Hunting cost some 2.5 turns
• 5) Agreed

With 2 fish, why wouldn't we want to be whipping ASAP in our capital?

See above. We want it at size 6, with library and granary. And possibly always a Scientist at work. Preferably 2.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Research:
- Wheel-Mining
- Hunting-AH-Writing
- BW

One point to note is that we shouldn't necessarily hurry after Hunting unless we have some resources which require a Camp, or know we're near another civ via land. This is because skipping Hunting leaves the option open to build Warriors, which will be very important if we're adopting Hereditary Rule. Of course, if we're near Persia then we have no choice but to get Hunting because we're going to need Spearmen.

Of course, the cheap research if we go Hunting before AH is tempting. BUT, if we meet another civ early (which we are probably likely to, given the map parameters), don't forget that we may be able to trade with them to backfill these early techs later.

About research, after mining, wheel then BW. I know BW is more important than wheel
but here wheel is more urgent. We need 6th pop to work 2 fish, 2 gold, first phf and silk then 2 scientists. Not many chops here. And whip, right now what? The first 4 tiles are too good to lose,while temporary, their pop. To discover copper,sure; but not
so urgent IMHO, as only the seetler needs to know about.

I agree with the whipping part - we can't afford not to work any of the 2 Fish and 2 Gold tiles once we have them up and running. Plus we'll want that Great Scientist ASAP. So we probably won't want to whip much (or at all) in the early game, since it'll hurt our research too much with this start.

That's an argument against Slavery though, not against Bronze Working. Personally I'm still in favour of early Bronze Working because of the potential Copper, and more importantly, the chops. I've always found early chopping to be immensely useful - especially if we want to try to nab the Great Lighthouse or some other early wonder.

BW is not a priority, since if we have it in BFC, great, otherwise we need to locate the copper only when we're almost done with the first settler.

But you forget that chops are a huge priority. Otherwise, our Worker will have nothing to do after hooking up the Golds. Moreover, without chops we won't have much of a shot at any early wonders we might want, and/or our Settler and other builds will be slowed down from what they could have been.

Considering that we are not Industrious and don't have any stone we might want to use the chops for the Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse.

The prerequisite techs for the GL are Sailing and Masonry. We start with fishing, and plan to research mining so in the long term a research path might be Mining>BW>Masonry>Sailing, with Wheel somewhere in there? BW is also good because it enables Metal Casting for the Colossus.

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious to the more advanced players, but this is just something thing to keep in mind for the future.

Colossus is probably a bit late for us to aim towards right now. Metal Casting is a rather expensive tech; and anyway, the Colossus benefits aren't as good as the Great Lighthouse benefits. But I'd certainly agree that the Great Lighthouse would probably be an excellent wonder for us to grab. Not to mention an early Lighthouse would be great with our double Fish.