State Property & Caste System

[Dom Pedro II]

Read Brave New World.

I have read it. Great book. One of my personal favorites.

EDIT: I was not really suggesting that state property and caste system were inherently incompatible. Certainly the Soviets managed to create their own elite class just fine with it, but I was merely pointing out the irony in the opposing ideologies as opposed to the practical applications.


I think the decision for +1 for Workshops with CS was done to really give a boost all around. Workshops are now better, and really needed to be honestly, SP is more competitive now that it blocks corporations, and CS is more useful too. Amazing how one change to one civic can improve a number of other things.

 

[mrt144]

I have read it. Great book. One of my personal favorites.

EDIT: I was not really suggesting that state property and caste system were inherently incompatible. Certainly the Soviets managed to create their own elite class just fine with it, but I was merely pointing out the irony in the opposing ideologies as opposed to the practical applications.


I think the decision for +1 for Workshops with CS was done to really give a boost all around. Workshops are now better, and really needed to be honestly, SP is more competitive now that it blocks corporations, and CS is more useful too. Amazing how one change to one civic can improve a number of other things.

dom pedro, i dont think you realize how awesome corporations can be.

resource trading has an amazing new importance.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

dom pedro, i dont think you realize how awesome corporations can be.

resource trading has an amazing new importance.

I'm sorry... I phrased that very poorly. I didn't mean that SP was more competitive because it blocks corporations. I meant to say that the synergy with Caste System means it can still be competitive in spite of the fact that it blocks corporations.

 

[Antilogic]

The fact is, how many corporations are you going to get in your territory? Are you going to have to wait for the AI to spread them to you on higher difficulty because they out-researched you and had the great people?

Without actually playing a few games with corporations, I can't say definitively whether or not the Caste System/State Property combo will be better or worse than using Free Market and corporations. Irregardless, it will probably be easier to make a bunch of workshops than get a whole bunch of non-competing corporations in your cities. Is this going to be map size dependent now? As in, if you are playing on a small map that might only have 4 wheat resources on the entire map against a huge one that has over 12?

I have to say, though, I am duly impressed by the new possible combo there: calculate a floodplain-watermill with the levees and State Property bonus. It's still mouthwatering. And the floodplain-workshop is to die for.

 

[Landstander]

I can see the SP/CS combo being a nice counter if other Civs monopolize the Corporations. It can keep them from making you pay the host fee, as well as give you an alternative strategy for upping food/prod etc.

But if you manage to found a few key Corps, and have the resources to make use of them, I see Corps as being inherently more effective (not only because of the Corp benefits, but because of how it will mesh well with Free Market.

Question: Can ONLY the Corp HQ generate Execs? If so, does that mean we are SoL if someone else founds a Corp - we simply wait and hope they spread it to us?

 

[mrt144]

The fact is, how many corporations are you going to get in your territory? Are you going to have to wait for the AI to spread them to you on higher difficulty because they out-researched you and had the great people?

Without actually playing a few games with corporations, I can't say definitively whether or not the Caste System/State Property combo will be better or worse than using Free Market and corporations. Irregardless, it will probably be easier to make a bunch of workshops than get a whole bunch of non-competing corporations in your cities. Is this going to be map size dependent now? As in, if you are playing on a small map that might only have 4 wheat resources on the entire map against a huge one that has over 12?

I have to say, though, I am duly impressed by the new possible combo there: calculate a floodplain-watermill with the levees and State Property bonus. It's still mouthwatering. And the floodplain-workshop is to die for.

as i stated in another thread , its 1 out of 3 AND 1 or 3 for corporations in terms of competition.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Question: Can ONLY the Corp HQ generate Execs? If so, does that mean we are SoL if someone else founds a Corp - we simply wait and hope they spread it to us?

From the wording of the civilopedia article, it seems like the corporation and not the HQ will be the deciding factor in whether a city can build execs in a particular city, so you probably can train them if the corp's spread into your civilization like you can with religions and missionaries. But that's just based on the somewhat ambiguous civilopedia entry.

I do think you're right though... State Property will probably only be useful in certain conditions... which is good since that's the way it should be. Having one civic be the right civic for all situations is an unbalanced civic.

 

[futurehermit]

I see state property + caste system being a natural fit for early domination wins (which has always been the case, but now more so!!!).

State property: Helps cut down maintenance costs for a huge empire. Improves workshop/watermill food to help make stronger production cities = more units faster.

Caste system: Gives you unlimited scientists for research phases when running FE/SE, which is customary for early domination wins. Improves workshop production for stronger production cities = more units faster.

If you are going space race, I think it makes more sense to be in free market with corporations, at least until near the end of the tech tree at which point you could quickly transition to a production empire if you want to build all of the space parts simultaneously.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

The fact is, how many corporations are you going to get in your territory? Are you going to have to wait for the AI to spread them to you on higher difficulty because they out-researched you and had the great people?

Without actually playing a few games with corporations, I can't say definitively whether or not the Caste System/State Property combo will be better or worse than using Free Market and corporations. Irregardless, it will probably be easier to make a bunch of workshops than get a whole bunch of non-competing corporations in your cities. Is this going to be map size dependent now? As in, if you are playing on a small map that might only have 4 wheat resources on the entire map against a huge one that has over 12?

I have to say, though, I am duly impressed by the new possible combo there: calculate a floodplain-watermill with the levees and State Property bonus. It's still mouthwatering. And the floodplain-workshop is to die for.

The pure output seems absurd :

BUT we really have no idea how corps and free market actually play out.
To all the guys who gave all the nos Thanks , but I've now been awake for something like 30 hours. Stupid, stupid civ, and stupid Watiggi (not really for the 2nd ).I went out into the sunlight and couldn't actually see for a good 5 mins. Stupid, stupid civ

And I'm trying to prove Obsolete's "Impossible Thread" strat can be done on Huge. marathon/immortal with Gandhi. I have one resource on my whole island continent, Gold, and according to the score, Im somehow winning, with no combat whatsoever..I just posted a huge post in that thread, but my connection hung, I pressed a few buttons and its gone

Ah man, and I went to a store earlier (a well known department store, not a computer games place), and did almost a Cartman type, "Do you have BTS, cos I know its out, but it ain't on the shelves?"...the guy went and found it in the back of the store, and was just about to sell it to me, when the comp told him that it isn't officially released yet....£$%^&%...

I should have told him to "respect my authoritie", and his console was wrong, but I just gave a deposit, and said I'd return on release day.....baaah

So splodgeness abounds atm...keep the comments coming

 

[jkp1187]

The pure output seems absurd :

BUT we really have no idea how corps and free market actually play out.
To all the guys who gave all the nos Thanks , but I've now been awake for something like 30 hours. Stupid, stupid civ, and stupid Watiggi (not really for the 2nd ).I went out into the sunlight and couldn't actually see for a good 5 mins. Stupid, stupid civ

And I'm trying to prove Obsolete's "Impossible Thread" strat can be done on Huge. marathon/immortal with Gandhi. I have one resource on my whole island continent, Gold, and according to the score, Im somehow winning, with no combat whatsoever..I just posted a huge post in that thread, but my connection hung, I pressed a few buttons and its gone

Ah man, and I went to a store earlier (a well known department store, not a computer games place), and did almost a Cartman type, "Do you have BTS, cos I know its out, but it ain't on the shelves?"...the guy went and found it in the back of the store, and was just about to sell it to me, when the comp told him that it isn't officially released yet....£$%^&%...

I should have told him to "respect my authoritie", and his console was wrong, but I just gave a deposit, and said I'd return on release day.....baaah

So splodgeness abounds atm...keep the comments coming

Aw fer....that isn't even FAIR. They have it!

That's it. I'm going to Wal-Mart tomorrow. They don't care. That's their motto.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Aw fer....that isn't even FAIR. They have it!

That's it. I'm going to Wal-Mart tomorrow. They don't care. That's their motto.

I'm not saying it was Wal-Mart, but i even picked a spotty 17 yr old clerk. You can't beat the damn stock computer..........

 

[Antilogic]

as i stated in another thread , its 1 out of 3 AND 1 or 3 for corporations in terms of competition.

I'm not talking about that. What I'm saying is: if an AI forms a corporation, how long does it take them to spread that corporation to you? Will they expand their corporation into your territory if you are not running Mercantilism or State Property? Do they spread normally, without the use of the suited men? Or does an AI have to do a missionary-style corporate expansion into a few of your cities?

This has been asked above, in probably more lucid terms than my post. However, we still don't have answers, just cryptic Civilopedia entries. What I need is the game to see for myself.

@DrewBledsoe: I made a deposit for a copy too. I have one of the first copies at my local Gamestop, the moment they can legitimately give me one. It sucks that they actually have the copies though, and showed one to you, and then said you couldn't have it. I'd bet if you go back and make a fuss with the managers, you'll get a copy eventually.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I'm not talking about that. What I'm saying is: if an AI forms a corporation, how long does it take them to spread that corporation to you? Will they expand their corporation into your territory if you are not running Mercantilism or State Property? Do they spread normally, without the use of the suited men? Or does an AI have to do a missionary-style corporate expansion into a few of your cities?

This has been asked above, in probably more lucid terms than my post. However, we still don't have answers, just cryptic Civilopedia entries. What I need is the game to see for myself.

@DrewBledsoe: I made a deposit for a copy too. I have one of the first copies at my local Gamestop, the moment they can legitimately give me one. It sucks that they actually have the copies though, and showed one to you, and then said you couldn't have it. I'd bet if you go back and make a fuss with the managers, you'll get a copy eventually.

The first part on Corps says it all. We just don't know. I've personally asked Watiggi for his impressions on Corps, and how they play out in game terms, when he actually plays a proper full game. He's generally a noble player, but a good one (Im sure he could play much higher if he wanted to), so we shall have at least a better idea soon enough.

Second part, Im late 30's irl, so I just don't feel like making a fuss. I'd be too embarrased. Myabe get my nephew to go in and make a fuss instead Yeah, that's evil, but it might just work .......right where's that wine I bought

 

[Virulent]

Antilogic and Drew: I don't mean to derail the thread but are you saying that some stores in North America have BtS but can't sell it, due to it being street dated?

Anyways back on topic I agree that even with the Civilopedia entries, I'm not 100% sure how exactly corps work. I think I'll need to play the game myself to see how exactly they work. But at least on paper SP sounds better than ever especially with caste system.

Also I heard that you can use spies to force an Civic change on an opponent so you can probably keep CS going longer by forcing a civic change when somebody adopts emancipation.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Antilogic and Drew: I don't mean to derail the thread but are you saying that some stores in North America have BtS but can't sell it, due to it being street dated?

Anyways back on topic I agree that even with the Civilopedia entries, I'm not 100% sure how exactly corps work. I think I'll need to play the game myself to see how exactly they work. But at least on paper SP sounds better than ever especially with caste system.

Also I heard that you can use spies to force an Civic change on an opponent so you can probably keep CS going longer by forcing a civic change when somebody adopts emancipation.

To answer your first bit:- Yes.

No-one (maybe apart from Civ testers) really seems to have any real clue about Corps.....

Good Idea, if it works

 

[jkp1187]

I'm sorry... I phrased that very poorly. I didn't mean that SP was more competitive because it blocks corporations. I meant to say that the synergy with Caste System means it can still be competitive in spite of the fact that it blocks corporations.

Which is probably what they wanted it to be -- an alternative for different circumstances, not necessarily a replacement in all circumstances.

 

[Antilogic]

I think very few have used the Advanced Start to jump straight to the Industrial Age where you can found Corporations. Most are probably still in the early parts of the game, or if they are that far in the game, they aren't posting anything.

 

[jkp1187]

By the way -- it just struck me that the UN (or Apostolic Palace) may kibbosh the SP/CS synergy with an enforced "everyone has to use this labor civic) vote...thoughts? (I know there's supposed to be a way to defy the UN, too, but I don't know all the details....)

As it is, this is an interesting thread. I'm normally not a SP fan, but this thread has me thinking that I may have to give the SP/CS combo a whirl.

 

[Rusty Edge]

After posting in this thread I ran some errands and I asked at Best Buy today. They have empty shelf space and a sign that says something like " Sid Myer's CIV IV Beyond the Sword coming soon! Release date subject to change, ask for details." ....

It'll be on their shelves July 25th.

 

[Astax]

I've actually used CS in warlords. I would use it basically so my front city is all artists It worked pretty good in MULTIPLAYER. Where people usually keep huge armies int heir front city, and if the opponent can successfully double move into your city, you are toast