Stealing techs question

[capnvonbaron]

Is there anything out there that explains the nuances of tech-stealing with embassies? I'm interested to find out if botched tech steals will ruin my reputation. Also, it is costly I know, but in theory if I turn my tech slider to zero and collect hundreds, sometimes thousands of gold every turn, could I just steal all the techs I want? I would rather do that than buy it from the computer and have the AI end up with lots of gold. I guess it depends on the ultimate likelyhood of success...

 

[Sashie VII]

A Study On Espionage Missions by Oystein might help, although I suspect you're not looking for mechanics.

For what failed espionage does to your rep, see AI Attitude Study by Bamspeedy.

in theory if I turn my tech slider to zero and collect hundreds, sometimes thousands of gold every turn, could I just steal all the techs I want?

In theory, yes. However the practicality would depend on difficulty level and chance. Stealing techs come with risk, and failed attempts can cause war if the target civilization is already angry with you. Sometimes war isn't what you need. As you move to higher difficulties, the consequences that might arise is much more dreadful.

Furthermore, if you're playing Emperor and below then I suggest that you only turn to espionage as a last resort. Trade for it, trading is a skill that's good to learn and pays off when mastered. Or you can just beat the techs out of the AI pointy-stick research is very feasible and fun if you don't want to line the AI's pockets with gold.

I'm playing 5CC at Emperor at the moment and I'm outresearching the closest AI by 5 techs in the late Middle Age Why steal and stay on par when you can leave them in the dust?

 

[Shad77]

I have NEVER had a failed attempt NOT cause war.

 

[vmxa]

If you were strong enough they will just bite their tongue and not declare. I have had that happen a number of times, but usually they will.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Is there anything out there that explains the nuances of tech-stealing with embassies? I'm interested to find out if botched tech steals will ruin my reputation. Also, it is costly I know, but in theory if I turn my tech slider to zero and collect hundreds, sometimes thousands of gold every turn, could I just steal all the techs I want? I would rather do that than buy it from the computer and have the AI end up with lots of gold. I guess it depends on the ultimate likelyhood of success...

There is also the almost obvious option of first buying a few techs for gpt from a very angry civ and then totally failing to steal a few techs more from the same very angry civ. Might work.

 

[Sashie VII]

There is also the almost obvious option of first buying a few techs for gpt from a very angry civ and then totally failing to steal a few techs more from the same very angry civ. Might work.

You can improve the chances for a DoW by first making the target civ very, very furious with impossible demands.

 

[capnvonbaron]

There is also the almost obvious option of first buying a few techs for gpt from a very angry civ and then totally failing to steal a few techs more from the same very angry civ. Might work.

I have had many deals (at regent/monarch, at least) where I have had a deal that was "we're getting close.." go to "they would never accept.." when I added a gpt to sweeten things on my end of the table. Very confusing. I'd figure the AI would be fine w/ taking gpt under any circumstance, I know I would. I don't know if it is b/c I had a botched trade rep previously or not though. It'll take some experimenting.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Stealing techs come with risk, and failed attempts can cause war if the target civilization is already angry with you. Sometimes war isn't what you need. As you move to higher difficulties, the consequences that might arise is much more dreadful.

Yeah, I hear that I had a juggernaut civ demand wine from me in a monarchy game once. I told them go to hell, and a dozen turns later they had nearly every other civ on the planet trying to end me. Pretty scary when I didn't have a source of iron available...

Or you can just beat the techs out of the AI pointy-stick research is very feasible and fun if you don't want to line the AI's pockets with gold.

Agreed, however the reason I would like to know is because I hate amphib wars before galleons become available, and prefer only to start them once I have transports. If I end up accidently causing war with another civ on another continent back in the MA, I don't really care at all as I know I won't have to deal with anything more than a couple of galleys floating up and letting off some inferior units.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I have had many deals (at regent/monarch, at least) where I have had a deal that was "we're getting close.." go to "they would never accept.." when I added a gpt to sweeten things on my end of the table. Very confusing. I'd figure the AI would be fine w/ taking gpt under any circumstance, I know I would. I don't know if it is b/c I had a botched trade rep previously or not though. It'll take some experimenting.

There are two causes that make the AI not accept gpt. First is obviously rep-hits. And the second is that you don't have a suffiently positive income. For example, if you have an income of +10 gpt, and you offer +20 gpt to an AI you'll get the "never accept." You have to have the gpt at least nominally coming in before you can use it in deal. Sometimes this is no more than merely temporarily adjusting sliders.

 

[vmxa]

I have had many deals (at regent/monarch, at least) where I have had a deal that was "we're getting close.." go to "they would never accept.." when I added a gpt to sweeten things on my end of the table. Very confusing. I'd figure the AI would be fine w/ taking gpt under any circumstance, I know I would. I don't know if it is b/c I had a botched trade rep previously or not though. It'll take some experimenting.

That shows your rep is shot. So they will never take any deal with gpt from you.

 

[capnvonbaron]

you know, I think emsworth is right... I've never checked whether I had positive income at the time or not. About 75% of the time I don't; I have a habit of keeping the tech slider at a position where I lose gpt to science until that last turn before the tech is discovered. I'll make sure I try it when I get home... I know for sure I haven't blown any trade deals this game simply because I haven't given anyone any gpt or resources yet, namely for lack of extras to gift away.

 

[ace_3399]

I've actually never used it. I should try it some time but i never really seemed worth it to me. Too expensive and if I'm stealing a tech it'll probably be from a more powerful civ who will declare war on me if I fail.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Tried and succeeded twice in my last game against the same civ, the Babs. Cost for each ran about 4300 gold. I then turned around and sold my new techs to Alex for around 3000 gold and 300+ gpt, and sold some other useless tech to the Babs for around the same. Talk about a good investment

Then I blew it and caused Hammi to DoW me when I tried to plant a spy to watch his spaceship progress. No matter... I had MPPs with four other civs that are busy womping on him now and gracious toward me for it. He's not on my continent anyways so all I have had to deal with is a smattering of ironclads that are being deterred by air force. I may try and get a diplo victory (I own UN) next election prompt with all those other civs being so happy with me... we'll see

 

[vmxa]

capnvonbaron you can test to see if you had a cash flow issue or rep. If it was cash, adjust the sliders and see. Likely it was not and you can make an offer that would normally be fine, such as borrow 10 and offer then 5gpt.

If they won't do that and they had 10 gold, you have a rep issue.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Yeah I botched it all up and it ended up being a rep issue. I declared on Xerxes and forgot I was giving him wines. The rest of the game, some civs would accept luxs or resources from me, others would scorn me. No matter; as I said I was getting other civs to pay through the nose for out-dated techs. Gotta love that I stole space flight and sold it for more than I paid for it

 

[Sweetchuck]

I have a question about stealing techs.

If you botch a tech theft, does the subsequent DOW cause war weariness for you?

If it doesn't, what a great way to start a war and not suffer weariness.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Yeah I botched it all up and it ended up being a rep issue. I declared on Xerxes and forgot I was giving him wines. The rest of the game, some civs would accept luxs or resources from me, others would scorn me.

Civs who were at war with Persia shouldn't have been able to "see" your rep-hit.

I have a question about stealing techs.

If you botch a tech theft, does the subsequent DOW cause war weariness for you?

If it doesn't, what a great way to start a war and not suffer weariness.

A DoW never causes any war weariness (it might merely make earlier stowed-up weariness become noticable again). In this instance you'd be the one DoW'ed anyway - but you won't get any war happyness either.

 

[Sweetchuck]

Civs who were at war with Persia shouldn't have been able to "see" your rep-hit.




A DoW never causes any war weariness (it might merely make earlier stowed-up weariness become noticable again). In this instance you'd be the one DoW'ed anyway - but you won't get any war happyness either.

Why not?

If someone DOW's me - that doesn't bring war happiness?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Why not?

Because!

If someone DOW's me - that doesn't bring war happiness?

Not necessarily. It depends on the 'type' of DoW whether you get war happyness or not. Let me see if I can give you a short rundown on when and when you do not get any WH. (All the examples go the other way 'round too, except where noted.)

I'll start with the cases where the DoW'ed Civ gets WH:

• Sneak attacks. For example, an AI shows up somewhere in your empire and just attacks a city or so. (Other examples include the so-called sub-bug, or when an AI attacks on of your privateers in one of your harbors.)

• Extortion. When an AI tries to extort something from you, you turn them down and they DoW.

• Refusal to leave. When some AI shows up with a bunch of units in your territory and they decide to DoW after you've asked them to either "leave of declare."

• Straight up DoW. The AI don't use it, but for the human player there is the possibilty to just click "Prepare for war" or whatever it says exactly, or to renegotiate peace and just close the diplo window without coming to an agreement.​

Cases where the DoW'ed Civ does not get any WH:

• Espionage. An AI declares war on you after you've failed with an espionage mission. (Neither side gets WH.)

• Military Alliances. Two AI forge an alliance against you, and one of them hadn't been at war with you yet.

• Mutual Protection Pacts. You trigger an MPP by attacking some AI's units and as a result gain a new foe.

• Nuclear Weapons. I am not entirely sure here, but when all civs declare war on you after you've used nukes I strongly suppose you won't get any WH from it. (This isn't something I see a lot.)​

And lastly there is a case that is neither here nor there:

• "Engineered" Wars. I just made up that name, but there exists the possiblilty to tie up peace treaties (you may need to use renegotiate) with deals that can be ended prematurely (other than DoW of course). Military Alliances and lux/resourse imports/exports are the only such deals though, I think. So, for example "Peace + MA vs XY" will result in a state of war between the MA partners if for some reason one side decides to make peace with XY, or if XY is destroyed, before the end of 20 turns. As a hard and fast rule, one side gets the rep-hit, the other side the war happyness.​

Have I missed anything?

 

[Sweetchuck]

Because!





Not necessarily. It depends on the 'type' of DoW whether you get war happyness or not. Let me see if I can give you a short rundown on when and when you do not get any WH. (All the examples go the other way 'round too, except where noted.)

I'll start with the cases where the DoW'ed Civ gets WH:

• Sneak attacks. For example, an AI shows up somewhere in your empire and just attacks a city or so. (Other examples include the so-called sub-bug, or when an AI attacks on of your privateers in one of your harbors.)

• Extortion. When an AI tries to extort something from you, you turn them down and they DoW.

• Refusal to leave. When some AI shows up with a bunch of units in your territory and they decide to DoW after you've asked them to either "leave of declare."

• Straight up DoW. The AI don't use it, but for the human player there is the possibilty to just click "Prepare for war" or whatever it says exactly, or to renegotiate peace and just close the diplo window without coming to an agreement.​

Cases where the DoW'ed Civ does not get any WH:

• Espionage. An AI declares war on you after you've failed with an espionage mission. (Neither side gets WH.)

• Military Alliances. Two AI forge an alliance against you, and one of them hadn't been at war with you yet.

• Mutual Protection Pacts. You trigger an MPP by attacking some AI's units and as a result gain a new foe.

• Nuclear Weapons. I am not entirely sure here, but when all civs declare war on you after you've used nukes I strongly suppose you won't get any WH from it. (This isn't something I see a lot.)​

And lastly there is a case that is neither here nor there:

• "Engineered" Wars. I just made up that name, but there exists the possiblilty to tie up peace treaties (you may need to use renegotiate) with deals that can be ended prematurely (other than DoW of course). Military Alliances and lux/resourse imports/exports are the only such deals though, I think. So, for example "Peace + MA vs XY" will result in a state of war between the MA partners if for some reason one side decides to make peace with XY, or if XY is destroyed, before the end of 20 turns. As a hard and fast rule, one side gets the rep-hit, the other side the war happyness.​

Have I missed anything?

Now you're talking.



BTW - I've been straight-up DOW'd by the AI, couple times.

So, to summarize - an aggressive DOW (units in territory, extortion, sneak attack and straight up) causes WH. But do the non-WH examples you listed later cause war weariness?

Hey - thanks for detailing that out, much appreciated.