Stone or Marble?

[Andvare]

SP, stone, as the stone wonders I want are contested by the AI, but the marble wonders I want are not really contested (usually). Besides, stone gives more hammers.
In MP, marble.

 

[JustinianVII]

Stone. I can build the Oracle and the GL without Marble, but I'm not able to build the Mids without stone. At least one of those resources is nice, since I always try to get both the Mids and the GL. The Mids and the GL go hand in hand--free science specialists under Representation in the early game=easy tech parity and the setup to get very advanced

 

[CivMcNut]

There's such an even split between the two as far as I'm concerned, the tiebreaker for me is being able to build walls and castles in any connected city for far cheaper with the stone, whereas marble is always a national wonder or world wonder helper.

 

[Dirk1302]

Marble 100%

 

[cabert]

Stone. I can build the Oracle and the GL without Marble, but I'm not able to build the Mids without stone.

seconded, stone gets my vote

 

[alex sword]

I don't like to settle great persons but there is one exception (and only one). Settled great merchant is very good to increase research within early expansion. Settled priest is no so good as merchant but anyway he generates cash. Double trade income improves your commerce.

All of these good things are allowed by Temple of Arthemis. I don' think that stone-dependent Pyramids is stronger than marble-dependent TA and I don't think that TA is stronger than Pyramids. Thinking about second priority wonders, we see marble-dependent Great Library and stone-dependent Universirty of Sangkor... Really, I think the choice depends on the civilization, its leader and overall strategy. So, early marble and early stone both are good, there is no huge difference between them. They are balanced.

 

[Scaphism]

The fact that it's even close (in the comments, not the poll) says a lot about how well the two are balanced.

I lean a bit more towards stone. I hate building Moai without it, and like others I can usually get a jump on the techs that unlock the Marble wonders.

 

[Artichoker]

The way I see it, is that Stone provides a savings on lots of World Wonders (like Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Great Wall), but not many National Wonders, whereas Marble provides savings on lots of National Wonders and a few World Wonders.

Heroic Epic and National Epic can be considered must-build wonders for any game, and having the Marble for those 2 builds can provide a crucial production advantage. As far as Marble wonders go, there is the Oracle and Temple of Artemis.

I consider cheap wonders like Stonehenge and Oracle to be more cost-efficient than expensive wonders like the Pyramids. After all, the more expensive a wonder is, the higher the risk for it being captured by an enemy civ. Both Stone and Marble affect production speed of both cheap and expensive wonders, but the advantage that Marble provides in building National wonders tips the scales in Marble's favor.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The way I see it, is that Stone provides a savings on lots of World Wonders (like Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Great Wall), but not many National Wonders, whereas Marble provides savings on lots of National Wonders and a few World Wonders.

Heroic Epic and National Epic can be considered must-build wonders for any game, and having the Marble for those 2 builds can provide a crucial production advantage. As far as Marble wonders go, there is the Oracle and Temple of Artemis.

I consider cheap wonders like Stonehenge and Oracle to be more cost-efficient than expensive wonders like the Pyramids. After all, the more expensive a wonder is, the higher the risk for it being captured by an enemy civ. Both Stone and Marble affect production speed of both cheap and expensive wonders, but the advantage that Marble provides in building National wonders tips the scales in Marble's favor.

I've never lost a race to build a national wonder . I'm going to build NE and HE whatever resources I have so they aren't an important factor in marbles favour for me. That I can build the Pyramids much quicker with stone is a major factor in its favour. Having stone is more likely to affect what I build than having marble will.

 

[Artichoker]

I've never lost a race to build a national wonder . I'm going to build NE and HE whatever resources I have so they aren't an important factor in marbles favour for me. That I can build the Pyramids much quicker with stone is a major factor in its favour. Having stone is more likely to affect what I build than having marble will.

OK, let's say the choice of Marble or Stone was random, and you could get one or the other, for the whole game...at least until the age of riflemen.

With Stone, you'd be building the Pyramids, Great Wall, and/or Stonehenge...but you probably won't have the resources to build all of them, even if you're Industrious, because at such an early stage of the game, your hammers will be limited.

With Marble, you'd be building the Oracle, Temple of Artemis, and/or Parthenon. Again, you probably won't have the resources to build all of them.

Once you get access to Heroic Epic and National Epic, if you assume that these will be built by both players, the one with Marble gets a savings in Hammers for both wonders, but not the one with Stone.

The difference between national and world wonders is that for national wonders--we are talking about Heroic Epic and National Epic--they are "must build" wonders. Not so for world wonders, for which there are many alternatives, including:

1) other world wonders

2) military units

3) settlers and workers

When you build Pyramids, there is an opportunity cost that can be circumvented by taking the enemy city that has the Pyramids. This is why the Pyramids is not a "must build" wonder.

 

[ABigCivFan]

I suspect what comes down to for voters who chose stone is the "Pyramid". Yes, everyone wants it and stone helps the most.

In most of my games, I dont bother with the Pyramid since it is so expensive, I have to build it at severe cost of REXing settlers/military. Even when stone is in BFC, then i just built GW.

The first 4000 years of the game is the Most important phase. There are a lot of good Marble wonders (GL, Oracle, Parthenon, TOA, later Taj) once built, these wonders really help you keep up with AIs on even the toughest levels.

After the Pyramids/GW, other stone wonders only provide very limited help to my empire. Even Oxford become available when I have developed decent production.

Building National wonders is about speed, get them up faster means a few more Axeman (HE), a faster GS to bulb liberalism (NE) in crucial moments.

After all, wonders don't win us the games, the amount of early good land, well-balanced play and strong military win the games.

 

[Zanttu]

The way I see it, is that Stone provides a savings on lots of World Wonders (like Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Great Wall), but not many National Wonders, whereas Marble provides savings on lots of National Wonders and a few World Wonders.

Heroic Epic and National Epic can be considered must-build wonders for any game, and having the Marble for those 2 builds can provide a crucial production advantage. As far as Marble wonders go, there is the Oracle and Temple of Artemis.

I consider cheap wonders like Stonehenge and Oracle to be more cost-efficient than expensive wonders like the Pyramids. After all, the more expensive a wonder is, the higher the risk for it being captured by an enemy civ. Both Stone and Marble affect production speed of both cheap and expensive wonders, but the advantage that Marble provides in building National wonders tips the scales in Marble's favor.

Stone accelerates Oxford university and one other late game national wonder I can't remember.. So Marble isn't the only one accelerating national wonders.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Stone accelerates Oxford university and one other late game national wonder I can't remember.. So Marble isn't the only one accelerating national wonders.

Stone used to accelerate Ironworks before BtS 3.13 and still accelerates West Point and Mt. Rushmore.

Even Oxford become available when I have developed decent production.

But the chances are very great your Oxford city is NOT one of those high production cities.

Building National wonders is about speed, get them up faster means a few more Axeman (HE), a faster GS to bulb liberalism (NE) in crucial moments.

Since the HE is already going in a high production city, and the NE goes in a city with ridiculous production potential due to the "extra" population, you're really only talking a few turns difference between having & not-having Marble.

In practice, the turn reduction from Stone to your Oxford city is going to far outweigh the turn reduction from Marble to your HE & NE city.

If National Wonders is the weighting for choosing Marble or Stone, Stone wins hands down in every respect.

 

[Scaphism]

Don't forget Moai Statues as a National Wonder that's sped up by Stone.

I typically find myself building it in a city that would otherwise be fairly medoicre, have poor production or limited means to grow. It allows a production poor city to be a contributor many, many turns sooner than it ever would be without Stone.

 

[Artichoker]

Stone used to accelerate Ironworks before BtS 3.13 and still accelerates West Point and Mt. Rushmore.



But the chances are very great your Oxford city is NOT one of those high production cities.



Since the HE is already going in a high production city, and the NE goes in a city with ridiculous production potential due to the "extra" population, you're really only talking a few turns difference between having & not-having Marble.

In practice, the turn reduction from Stone to your Oxford city is going to far outweigh the turn reduction from Marble to your HE & NE city.

If National Wonders is the weighting for choosing Marble or Stone, Stone wins hands down in every respect.

The fundamental difference between Oxford and Heroic Epic/National Epic is that the former becomes accessible further down the tech tree, at approximately the stage of the game when cavalry/grenadiers/riflemen/cannons become accessible.

With the case of Oxford (and some other National Wonders) is that building it can become secondary to building military units and taking advantage of the high firepower of cavalry/grenadiers/riflemen/cannons.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

With the case of Oxford (and some other National Wonders) is that building it can become secondary to building military units and taking advantage of the high firepower of cavalry/grenadiers/riflemen/cannons.

At at time when the military is consuming a large portion of your economy's research in the form of gold, I'd think you'd want Oxford out that much sooner so you can keep your research alive and have the next tech that much sooner.

Aside from that, it may be a strategic preference, but I can't tell you the last time I tried to make military units in my Oxford city ... it seems to go against the whole idea of city specialization to me if you're just going to "warm body" your best cities out for something they're not suited for.

The way I see it, is that Stone provides a savings on lots of World Wonders (like Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Great Wall), but not many National Wonders, whereas Marble provides savings on lots of National Wonders and a few World Wonders.

I didn't notice this until just now while re-reading, but this is also wildly inaccurate.

Stone (BtS 3.13) grants bonuses on 10 World Wonders (4700 worth) and 4 National Wonders (1950 worth). Marble grants bonuses on 8 World Wonders (3950 worth) and 3 National Wonders (700 worth).

 

[Zanttu]

Stone (BtS 3.13) grants bonuses on 10 World Wonders and 4 National Wonders. Marble grants bonuses on 8 World Wonders and 3 National Wonders.

After getting this clarification, I see no point in preferring marble over stone. Of course it's game dependant and blah blah blah, but generally there's no way marble could compete with stone.

 

[ABigCivFan]

But the chances are very great your Oxford city is NOT one of those high production cities.

In most of my games, the Oxford ends up in my Capital with GL/NE combo. The Beauracracy bonus make this combo very appealing when the game is the tighest. It is very very hard for a non-capital city to beat my capital in commerce and science. I do mine the hills Lumber mill trees in commerce cities so they get later improvements online quickly.

 

[Artichoker]

After getting this clarification, I see no point in preferring marble over stone. Of course it's game dependant and blah blah blah, but generally there's no way marble could compete with stone.

It's really a matter of timing...the Heroic Epic and National Epic may comprise only 2 National Wonders.

However, the frequency at which they are produced in almost every game, and the early time at which they become accessible makes the hammer savings more significant than if they were available at a later time, or if the marble bonus were applied to less essential National Wonders.

 

[Archbob]

Stone, I use the Great Engineer from the pyramids from to build a marble wonder. The HG gives me more great engineers, its great.