tu_79
Deity
Hi,
I made this suggestion in current release thread, but I wanted to explain better my reasons.
Let's see some basic facts:
1. Pottery is researched 1st or 2nd. Rarely 3rd.
We need to claim territory, even an aggressive civ need one or two extra cities to claim some strategics. And the sooner the city is built, the sooner it becomes profitable.
2. Animal Husbandry is researched 1st or 2nd.
Unless we start isolated, we need to know whether we are going to face a neighbour with horsemen and whether we can use them ourselves. If a neighbour is going to attack soon with horses, we need to rush spearsmen for defense, or horsemen if we can, but the sooner the better.
3. Wheel is almost never rushed. We can't afford roads yet, bananas are jungle only, and council, good as it might be, can wait until we have some self-defense units and workers. The only reason to get wheel early is if we have found horses and we want to rush some horsemen, since it's in the way to Military Tradition. Calendar must wait: without archers or spearsmen, it's a bit crazy to rush Calendar.
4. The above points make two paths for 3rd techs without easy to take horses: Either Trapping, boosting food and gold and try to hold with just archers for a while, either Mining going for Bronze Working and spearsmen. Wheel is only a third option if we have horses and we can capitalize on them.
In the thread, I was under the assumption that Military Tradition and Construction are going to be swapped. In this case, Wheel has 0 reasons to be chosen in 3rd place.
5. Look at how long it takes for each improvements:
-farms (0 techs)
-mines (1 tech), it could be the 3rd. On the path to spearsmen.
-pastures (1 tech), it could be the 1st or 2nd. Chariots, on the path to horsemen.
-camps (1 tech), it could be the 3rd. Archers.
-quarries (3 techs), stones revealed by 3rd. It could be the 4th tech, but without advanced units, so it is more likely the 5th tech.
-plantation (3 techs), bananas revealed by 3rd. It could be the 4th tech, but without advanced units, and without production boosts, so it is more likely the 6th tech. Especially if we have to chopp forests.
If we move Military Tradition to Construction, then quarries require one more tech, since Mining is no longer a requirement for Construction. Moving the quarries to Mining brings its own problems, since then quarries could be improved with just 1 tech, probably the 3rd, and that would cause tons of balance problems.
If we assume that swapping Military Tradition with Construction is a good idea for opening a better path to Iron Working, then what I proposed was:
- Move stones to Wheel
- Leave quarries in Construction
The benefits of this change are:
1. Wheel becomes worthier to rush, not just in jungles, not only for the techs it unlocks.
2. Production becomes less concentrated. It won't penalize production too much when rushing plantations.
3. Mining is still worth rushing, especially with any mineable luxury, and it's required for horsemen, although councils could be moved here if it feels too empty.
4. Quarries availability won't change too much, so we don't have to tweak luxuries and pantheons again. (which could be the case if we just swapped Military Theory with Construction).
I made this suggestion in current release thread, but I wanted to explain better my reasons.
Let's see some basic facts:
1. Pottery is researched 1st or 2nd. Rarely 3rd.
We need to claim territory, even an aggressive civ need one or two extra cities to claim some strategics. And the sooner the city is built, the sooner it becomes profitable.
2. Animal Husbandry is researched 1st or 2nd.
Unless we start isolated, we need to know whether we are going to face a neighbour with horsemen and whether we can use them ourselves. If a neighbour is going to attack soon with horses, we need to rush spearsmen for defense, or horsemen if we can, but the sooner the better.
3. Wheel is almost never rushed. We can't afford roads yet, bananas are jungle only, and council, good as it might be, can wait until we have some self-defense units and workers. The only reason to get wheel early is if we have found horses and we want to rush some horsemen, since it's in the way to Military Tradition. Calendar must wait: without archers or spearsmen, it's a bit crazy to rush Calendar.
4. The above points make two paths for 3rd techs without easy to take horses: Either Trapping, boosting food and gold and try to hold with just archers for a while, either Mining going for Bronze Working and spearsmen. Wheel is only a third option if we have horses and we can capitalize on them.
In the thread, I was under the assumption that Military Tradition and Construction are going to be swapped. In this case, Wheel has 0 reasons to be chosen in 3rd place.
5. Look at how long it takes for each improvements:
-farms (0 techs)
-mines (1 tech), it could be the 3rd. On the path to spearsmen.
-pastures (1 tech), it could be the 1st or 2nd. Chariots, on the path to horsemen.
-camps (1 tech), it could be the 3rd. Archers.
-quarries (3 techs), stones revealed by 3rd. It could be the 4th tech, but without advanced units, so it is more likely the 5th tech.
-plantation (3 techs), bananas revealed by 3rd. It could be the 4th tech, but without advanced units, and without production boosts, so it is more likely the 6th tech. Especially if we have to chopp forests.
If we move Military Tradition to Construction, then quarries require one more tech, since Mining is no longer a requirement for Construction. Moving the quarries to Mining brings its own problems, since then quarries could be improved with just 1 tech, probably the 3rd, and that would cause tons of balance problems.
If we assume that swapping Military Tradition with Construction is a good idea for opening a better path to Iron Working, then what I proposed was:
- Move stones to Wheel
- Leave quarries in Construction
The benefits of this change are:
1. Wheel becomes worthier to rush, not just in jungles, not only for the techs it unlocks.
2. Production becomes less concentrated. It won't penalize production too much when rushing plantations.
3. Mining is still worth rushing, especially with any mineable luxury, and it's required for horsemen, although councils could be moved here if it feels too empty.
4. Quarries availability won't change too much, so we don't have to tweak luxuries and pantheons again. (which could be the case if we just swapped Military Theory with Construction).
looking forward to trying it out
