Stop the AIs pointlessly declaring war

T.A JONES said:
Ya I think the OPs main complaint was that Game mechinics are flawed when Civs declare war across the world but can't deliver their massed up army to battle. He believes as do I, that its because the AI wasn't progrmmed to be able to.
Im hearing the same ol reponses to bringing up valid points that are negative. like its easy to fix! just never allow yourself to play continents. Sounds good!!

then to make matters worse the AI teases with lil pokes at his boats for the rest of his game. THere starving his civ? hell no its just annoying him to death!

And keeping him from switching to Representation and/or Universal Suffrage. No way you can be in those governments with a war lasting >20 turns without it becoming a loss to your civilization requiring a switch to police state or something. Or building wonders that can handle the problem.
 
T.A JONES said:
Ya I think the OPs main complaint was that Game mechinics are flawed when Civs declare war across the world but can't deliver their massed up army to battle. He believes as do I, that its because the AI wasn't progrmmed to be able to.
Im hearing the same ol reponses to bringing up valid points that are negative. like its easy to fix! just never allow yourself to play continents. Sounds good!!

then to make matters worse the AI teases with lil pokes at his boats for the rest of his game. THere starving his civ? hell no its just annoying him to death!
I had a thread on here about including distance as more of a factor in whether or not a civ goes to war... Maybe increase negatives for border pressure stat (and decrease other factors)?


edit - thinking more on it now I think my thread may have asked that there be no war unless you or an ally were touching borders - hmmm have to find that post again

edit2 - here it is!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113365
 
Hmmm... perhaps I missed something, but is this just a bug with Warlords? I have been invaded from accross the sea, massively so, several times in my adventures. Mansa Musa once landed 30 units on my shores at once!
 
I remembering it happening before warlords, it's just that I snapped that day after it happened twice.

On a similar note, I don't like how civs on the other side of the world ask for your aid in a war. I was playing as England on the 24 civ map and China asked me to help them fight Mongolia and this was early on in the game. I only found them because my religion spread.
 
supersoulty said:
I have been invaded from accross the sea, massively so, several times in my adventures. Mansa Musa once landed 30 units on my shores at once!

What??? 30 troops, thats a whole new ball game for me. Can you please help with some supporting info?
How many transports did they come in? was it crowded boats or kinda like, you know, only a few to a boat, like when some miss the boat sometimes :) . in that case you would have had the seas flooded with ships!

DId they sneak to your shores in a GIANT S.O.D? or come in multiple lil stacks, not afraid to be seen on apprach?, in that case, were thre a lot of ships guardeding the transports? or would you've had a chance to sink em ( if you had enough vessels on stand by to to so!) before they landed?

Really, I happy for you, hope someone else comes forward with similair stories, mybe its all been worked this time. It would be a major change in CIVIILAZATION history playying against a AI that comes from overseas looking to conquer and not for pillage party. :viking:
 
Yeah once an AI decides to attack it appears you cant change its mind. Reload a few turns and do whatever you like (shuffle men or upgrade them, get allies or tech, become buddies in diplo) they still attack. I dont know how far back (turn wise) its decisions go but at some point it 'locks in' its decision to fight.

As to pointless wars, I have never seen the ai do a proper naval invasion. The biggest I ever saw was about 16 or so men in the latest age, where I was fiddling round and letting the AI get quite big. Earlier then that you seem to get less men more like 3 or 4 maybe later 6 or 8. About whatever 2 or 3 transport type ships can carry. The AI seems to make a set navy, so even on a pangea map you will get its set 2 or 3 transport full of men attacking in a war.

It one of the things that makes having a decent navy so pointless. All you need is 3 or 4 ships to stop an inveasion. Or dont even bother just let them land and destroy them.

The same thing happens on land but its much less noticable. I assume there set themselves up for a pillaging war, but they declare war and send over very few units, they get destroy and do nothing else for the rest of the war - they just get pillaged themselves. You ask your self 'what was he thinking' as you notice youve pillaged all of their empire and wreck a border city or two and made 2 or 3 grand from the war.
 
In the game I'm playing now Monty declared war on me by dropping off 20-30 units in front of a small island city I had. He accompanied his galleons with about 6 frigates. I actually saw it the turn before it landed (just outside my cultural borders)...couldn't do anything to help my city but buy a few troops, but I was able to get 2 defensive pacts that turn before he hit! So Monty didn't make any further attacks on me after taking that one city. I had 2 cities on a next-door island where I was buying defensive troops every other turn, but his ships immediately returned to his homeland to deal with the war there, and his massive stack stayed on the island. It's still there, I think, 200 years later in the game.

Oh, and this is vanilla civ (1.61), not the expansion.
 
What level do you play at? What sort of map?

Ive seen them drop off a 'stack' but its usually no where near that amount of men.

It might be the way I play but Ive just never ever seen so many men dropped off. Maybe, I could go as far as 20 but no more, and that would be incredibily unusual rather then the norm.
 
The AI only tend to attack weaker nations. I would check demographics to see how you compare to the AI on military size. I cant remember the last time the AI attacked me as im too busy attacking them ;)
 
I sometimes declare war on a distant AI civ as well, but that was done to improve relationship with his enemies.
 
centrelink4 said:
What level do you play at? What sort of map?

Ive seen them drop off a 'stack' but its usually no where near that amount of men.

It might be the way I play but Ive just never ever seen so many men dropped off. Maybe, I could go as far as 20 but no more, and that would be incredibily unusual rather then the norm.

Prince/occasionally Monarch. Huge Fractal maps with random settings.

It doesn't happen every game that I see a naval landing like that (my current game, for instance, noone's declared war on me), but it happens. Monty in particular seems to always have gigantic stacks mid-to-late game. I never figured out exactly how many troops he landed in that game I described above. Even when he lost several troops taking my city and moved several others around, there were always more troops in one spot than would display on the screen when I moused over.
 
Does AI suffer from war wearingness? Recently I was playing a game and a Roman declared war on me from across the ocean. The only thing that ever came was 1 destroyer that kept bombarding one city's defences. This continued for like 30 turns. I ignored him cause I was not the agressor and my war wearingness didn't grow so quickly, but the Roman should have been burning in the fires of his people rioting, but it seems that he didn't.
 
T.A JONES said:
then to make matters worse the AI teases with lil pokes at his boats for the rest of his game. THere starving his civ? hell no its just annoying him to death!

Don't you see how diabolically clever the AI is here? It knows it sucks at war, so it hopes to annoy you into giving up on the game. It may not win, but at least it doesn't lose. :lol:
 
Napalm102 said:
Does AI suffer from war wearingness? Recently I was playing a game and a Roman declared war on me from across the ocean. The only thing that ever came was 1 destroyer that kept bombarding one city's defences. This continued for like 30 turns. I ignored him cause I was not the agressor and my war wearingness didn't grow so quickly, but the Roman should have been burning in the fires of his people rioting, but it seems that he didn't.
I can't say for sure if the AI experiences WW, I think it does, but in the circumstances you describe, WW would have been minimal even for a human player.

What really exacerbates war weariness are two things, IIRC: (1) losing units, which makes sense; and (2) capturing or razing an enemy city, which does not. Hey, we're winning! We just achieved a major victory! What, that's not good news?!?

Civs in IV are obviously populated with soft-hearted peacenik hippies. :mad:
 
Sisiutil said:
I can't say for sure if the AI experiences WW, I think it does, but in the circumstances you describe, WW would have been minimal even for a human player.

What really exacerbates war weariness are two things, IIRC: (1) losing units, which makes sense; and (2) capturing or razing an enemy city, which does not. Hey, we're winning! We just achieved a major victory! What, that's not good news?!?

Civs in IV are obviously populated with soft-hearted peacenik hippies. :mad:

I want 1984's gov't. that would dominate civ. we have always been at war w/ eurasia.
 
I once had Alex dump ~20 cavalry supported by 6 cannons on my capital. That....wasn't pleasant. The AI is capable of it, but it doesn't seem to do it very "evenly" so to speak. My guess is that the AI gets distracted by something and simply "forgets" to load up the troops it intended to use...
 
I am curious, what world sizes/difficulties are most of you playing on, who constantly have the AI declaring "pointless war"?

My experience has been... Yes, a lot of wars are just flash-in-the-pan wars which don't amount to much. On the other hand...

I usually play emperor/huge with 13 Civs total. As a result, if the game continues late, the map is simply too large for me to possibly have militarily dealt with more than a few people - too much distance, too many diplomatic anthills I can't afford to kick, and simply too many targets... And whenever you raze a city, someone else is going to build a new one there, so long distance wars result in weakening one opponent and making another one bigger. The AI, being set to noble, always, can afford to have way more cities than you, so, they tend to get pretty damned huge by the end.

In a big map like this with lots of people, religious lines are usually quite stark, and diplomacy is an absoltuely uncontrollable nightmare. Oftentimes what I find is that, somewhere out in the world, one or two "trouble" Civs are beyond my power to do much about them - and they come back to bite me in the ass *hard* at some point.

For example, I was west coast on a huge pangea recently with Louis and was just about to get grenadiers... I was Buddhist, had spent a great deal of the game at war with nearby civs and had a very nicely sized civ with a really quite respectable military. Then it came.

Monty declared war on me and *holy ****.* Must have been close to 60 technologically competitive units came spilling across my border, and waves actually followed behind those blowing past my border cities one by one, pillaging and destroying everything... I actually got wiped right out - by a CPU.

I've seen variants of this happen with Genghis and Kuglai before, also with Alex and Isabella. Never on smaller maps/lower difficulties though - always on huge/emperor or above.

I know for a fact that the AI has the power to put out some frightening, if not spectacularly planned, war efforts... Though, a vast majority of the wars they make are still piecemeal. I honestly would like to see more wars like Monty waged on me that game, but, I promise you, if you guys are on the right difficulty/right map type, you will see some pretty scary CPU attack forces coming your way. Not perfect, I know, since you should see things like this on all difficulties/map sizes... But it least it can happen.

PS - play a religious game sometime and convert a few people to whatever religion you founded so you can see into their cities. Some civs (Julius Ceaser, Monty, the Khans, and a few others) have absolutely ridiculous unit buildups which a player can't dream of affording without some very high-yield shrines... That is, if you give them time to do so. I think a good part of the reason why people never see the CPU wage big wars is because they never give it time to build up units - many people seem to play small maps and extremely aggressive games, wiping out most of the competition long before it has a chance to do much. If you play on large enough maps with enough CPU's on a high enough difficulty though, you absolutely cannot help letting some of them build up, and this results in the **** really hitting the fan sooner or later.

Edit: Oh, one more note... One thing I suspect, but can't confirm, is that the slower the game speed, the more time the AI has to stew and get pissed off at you. I prefer going epic speed, and though units are coming in more slowly, it gives that many more turns for the opponent to decide to declare war on me, for my blatent Buddhism (or whatever) to piss them off and push them towards hostility. I think this is a contributing factor for long distance wars - sometimes, on faster speeds, the game is just over too soon for hostilities to really set in. Not the case on slower speeds - or at least, so I've gathered.
 
Sisiutil said:
I can't say for sure if the AI experiences WW, I think it does, but in the circumstances you describe, WW would have been minimal even for a human player.

What really exacerbates war weariness are two things, IIRC: (1) losing units, which makes sense; and (2) capturing or razing an enemy city, which does not. Hey, we're winning! We just achieved a major victory! What, that's not good news?!?

There's another thread right now that goes into the causes of War Weariness. I can't find it right now, but winning battles causes war weariness as well. Basically your society gets tired of killing. As long as there is killing on either side, ever increasing segments of your populace will tire of it.

You're quite right that it's easy to have long distance wars for a long time as long as there's no death involved. In my current game Monty has warred with Mansa off and on for centuries. Several times when he asked me to declare war on Mansa I complied. I wanted the good relations, and Mali is far enough away from me that he's not going to launch a serious attack on me while the Aztecs are invading his continent. Some of these 'wars' went on for 40 or 50 turns with me maybe killing 1 ship that came towards my coasts. I'd have no war weariness at all when I finally asked for peace.

After finally deciding to actually send an invading force recently, my War weariness started to make itself felt with a -1 in my big cities rather quickly after the first real fighting began. It's been rising as the fighting continues.
 
I've had pangea games where I'm in on one end of a land mass and a civ way at the other friggin end will declare war, this is still bc now. There is no strategic value for the ai to march all the way across the continent to attack you. It's kinda annoying I think and a way to mask ai weakness.
 
What happens to WW if you have Police state sivic, police station and mount Rushmoore? Since it is -100% to WW shouldn't it mean that you can be at war forever?
 
Back
Top Bottom