Stop the transports

Moon Pine

Nuke Attack!!!
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
191
Location
Chinese Empire
:( Naval Transports (Galley, Galleon and Transport) can just wait at your bolder then declare war, move to the coast and drop all units on your land in just one turn - before your naval force can move a bit. Right, you can declare way on him when you see enemy naval transports are gethering near your bolder, but that way, it's you that are responsible for the war. That means you can't stop enemy first landing even if you have a overwhelming naval force. :eek: Naval warships are useless enough, I think - they can't do anything with enemy landing neither.
:confused: To make the warships could stop the transorts, I think, is to stop transports drop troops at the first turn in a war.
I have 2 issues to solve this problem:
Spoiler :
1.Transported units in Galley, Galleon and Transport can't move after the transport - if the transport moved in a turn, it can't land its transported units in that turn.

Spoiler :
2.Transports can't enter enemy territory in the first turn of a war - the transports can't land its forces before enemy naval force have a chance to destroy them. It affected only the leader who declares war and only the turn when the war declared.

Does any buddy agree on one of thetwo issues?:goodjob:
 
I like it the way it is. In fact changing it would take away from the game. Preparing for a suprise attack is a challenge I like. Suprise attacks are a fair and realistic part of the game.

I will watch relations with other civs. When things get sour with a civ, I send some scout ships their way to try to spot transports on the way. Sometimes you will even get "advanced notice" of an imminent attack when the enemy civ cancels trade agreements.

Be happy that the AI does not do amphibious assaults. :)
 
There is an unreality, though, with parking a ship full of troops in the ocean for an extended period of time. Maybe the solution is something that requires your ship to enter a coastal tile within 10-15 (depending on map size) turns?
 
:( Naval Transports (Galley, Galleon and Transport) can just wait at your bolder then declare war, move to the coast and drop all units on your land in just one turn - before your naval force can move a bit. Right, you can declare way on him when you see enemy naval transports are gethering near your bolder, but that way, it's you that are responsible for the war. That means you can't stop enemy first landing even if you have a overwhelming naval force. :eek: Naval warships are useless enough, I think - they can't do anything with enemy landing neither.
:confused: To make the warships could stop the transorts, I think, is to stop transports drop troops at the first turn in a war.
I have 2 issues to solve this problem:
Spoiler :
1.Transported units in Galley, Galleon and Transport can't move after the transport - if the transport moved in a turn, it can't land its transported units in that turn.

Spoiler :
2.Transports can't enter enemy territory in the first turn of a war - the transports can't land its forces before enemy naval force have a chance to destroy them. It affected only the leader who declares war and only the turn when the war declared.

Does any buddy agree on one of thetwo issues?:goodjob:

If there is one aspect of the game that is already too weak, it is naval warfare. I think your ideas would make naval warfare even worse.

I could (possibly) be persuaded that idea number 1 could work, provided that it does not further harm naval warfare.

Perhaps a more reasonable approach would be have the transporting unit incurr a landing penalty such as:

1. Loading/Unloading penalty: It costs one movement point/unit to unload units from a ship.
2. Landing/Boarding Penalty: If a unit or units is unloaded off of a ship, it lose x number of movement points. Between 2-4 movement points.
3. Landing penalty for difficult to unload items. Civ 3 had an option where only Foot units could be moved by helo. Something similar could be done with transports:
Foot units-no penalty
Calvary-1 movement point
Armored/vehicle/misc. large unit-2 movement points.

If all of the movement is used up, units can be unloaded or loaded at will.
 
I like it the way it is. In fact changing it would take away from the game. Preparing for a suprise attack is a challenge I like. Suprise attacks are a fair and realistic part of the game.
It`s not the problem of suprise attack but if I want to stop him before he lands his troops, I must declare war on him not he on me.
 
If there is one aspect of the game that is already too weak, it is naval warfare. I think your ideas would make naval warfare even worse.

I could (possibly) be persuaded that idea number 1 could work, provided that it does not further harm naval warfare.

Perhaps a more reasonable approach would be have the transporting unit incurr a landing penalty such as:

1. Loading/Unloading penalty: It costs one movement point/unit to unload units from a ship.
2. Landing/Boarding Penalty: If a unit or units is unloaded off of a ship, it lose x number of movement points. Between 2-4 movement points.
3. Landing penalty for difficult to unload items. Civ 3 had an option where only Foot units could be moved by helo. Something similar could be done with transports:
Foot units-no penalty
Calvary-1 movement point
Armored/vehicle/misc. large unit-2 movement points.

If all of the movement is used up, units can be unloaded or loaded at will.

One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post was this:

Part of the problem with naval warfare is there is no incentive to transport anything there by the modern era. Units can be airlifted (at least in Civ 3) or moved anywhere there is a railroad tile.

In order for naval warfare to improve, other modes of transportation must have comparable speeds.
 
Airlift and Railway are greatly nerfed in Civ4 or at least in Warlords.
 
The problem is, even if you have ships patroling your coasts, you cannot stop a naval invasion: ships go through your defenses and land their troops.

So, what about Zones Of Control for ships?

If a ship moves close to an enemy naval unit (during a war), it can be hit/stopped/sunk/whatYouLike.

I think something like that has to be implemented. Although natural barriers, like on land, would also help the process by create trade routes. The barriers would consist of different speeds of transport, ranging from 1-3 mp to simulate martime hazards. This would force/persuade people to take more similar routes.
 
I don't see why this should be any different for naval units than it is for land units. Would you also impose that on the first turn of war the aggressor cannot steal unprotected workers? Would you say the aggressor is not allowed to move its tanks onto the forested hill beside a large city he intends to capture? Air units too - should I be allowed to bomb the %* out of your army before you get a chance to move let alone absorb my attacks?

In short, I don't think transports need any changing. If only because it would make surprise sea attacks weaker.
 
There is a way to stop overwhealming forces form landing in transports. Have ships around your coastline, to form a defensive envelope to kill ships that skirt your borders. Build culture. If your sea boarder is three squares out, a unit with 2 movement will not reach your shore in one turn. Keep an eye on your borders, lest you get struck from behind. Surprise attacks happen. Deal with it.

I like to use surprise attacks against AI's. It gets me some early workers. It quite often gets me the few cities that I actually bother taking and not just burning, and it can be the difference between overrunning and destroying the enemy or getting overrun and destroyed myself in a counterattack.
 
Apart from stopping reinforcements? You say that as if that's minor. The invader stack can be countered and defeated usually. It's the reinforcements that drive the nails into your coffin. Destroying the enemy's navy keeps them from reinforcing their front against you. Pump out naval vessels and use the Nationhood civic to draft desparately needed reinforcements, and you'll counter the invasion stack. Keeping reinforcements from making it across, preferably taking the ships out with their armies on board, will make their military more stagnate while you build the counter attack. I played a game once, where I had the only oil on land, and my destroyers kept the sea clear of enemy improvements. Overseas enemies with armies large enough to stomp me, had no way of getting them to me. The powerful navy is not the one with more ships, but the one that makes the enemy suffer more. Keeping their bellies fishless inflicted more damage on them than the sinking of their navies did. A powerful navy is one that makes your nation the only one in the world that knows the taste of fish. Invasion fleets are overratted, and underpowered as it is. I stopped using navies offensively, ever since they made ships unable to attack units on the shore. In Civ III the formula for overrunning a civ, becomes, build X units per city, then invade, and the formula for invading overseas, is Build X units per city, then put them on boats, and send them with a few destroyers to keep the transport stack from getting sunk by the other civ's ships. Suddenly naval warfare felts so undertoned. What I found amusing in Civ III was when a larger civ would declare war on me, then send a bunch of warships into my seas, and just sit there, not doing crap except blocking out a coast square or two, not able to do crap to my port cities' defenders but take a hit point off ever two turns, just to watch it go back up. I was just on the floor laughing... In Civ II those same units would have whacked my sorry ass out of the ports, and ships with units to take the cities would have arrived within a few turns. Instead, 15 turns later, my units are upgraded, to the next tech level, my destroyers clear their ships out, and their massive stack of Cavalry and Knights just does't stack up to cities defended by Infantry.

Civ IV is better about the "One Infantry kills the Cavalry Stack" canundrum, and has an improved version of both sea economy and naval intradiction. In Civ III and ealier games, naval units stopped trade on the square they inhabited, but in Civ IV Naval units stop trade on the squares they inhabit, and the adjacend sea squares, so Civ IV has a sort of "Zone of Control" for naval units, but it is in the department of trade intradiction rather than stopping units. If you put a ship in every third square, with one free square between each ship and the coast, all along the coastline of an enemy nation, then that nation has no sea trade whatsoever. The way the oceans are handled is not underpowered or overpowerd, it's just balanced in a matter that works differently than the sensibilities of land army tactics. The idea is that land combat, and sea combat are inherintly different, and the very objective of sea combat is different. I don't usually build my strategy around having a powerful navy, but I do like to enjoy the benefits. And I rather like being able to drop big stacks of units on my enemy's shore, on the first turn... and if I have a crapload of marines to fight with the first turn, even better. It's not like the game doesn't already have enough handicaps and defense strategies that put the odds inherently in favor of the defender. Ever heard the saying that, "Invasions are not stopped by great pitfalls, but by friction." Every slight delay, and setback, creates just one more bit of friction. This is good for giving defenders the ability to keep themselves from being totally wipped out. But putting too much "extra fricton" will sipmly make offensive warfare more tedious, and it will ultimately do the same for defensive warfare. Giving the defender the chance to prepare his counterassault on the first turn to weaken the offenders, will only result in the offender anticipating that it will take more ships(which means more troops) to get beach head, which ultimately means the AI, which is both repetative in its behavior and has no sense of the tedium, will simply build larger navies, holding larger armies, with which to smoke your ass.

Which brings me to my point. Making ships unable to land units the same turn they move, will simply add yet another point of friction to the warfare process, which will simply make wars more tedious and drag them on for longer, without actually adding anything, but a potential point of convenience for the prepared defender. If you have enough ships to take out the invasion fleet, then don't bother being the passive defender, take their ships out first, even if it means declaring war... and if you don't have enough ships to do that, then a "one-turn delay" won't help you one bit anyway.
 
I don't want it changed personally.

I look at it this way. If you see an invasion fleet massing and you know whats coming, you should start preparing. If you don't see it coming and you get suprised, you should have been prepared.

Imagine the square as a large section of ocean. if you want to blockade and create a zone of control, you should have created a blockade and your own zone of control across multiple squares =P

I have, in the past, created channeling blockades (two staggered lines) so that they have to go sideways and waste movement and fall short of land fall or attack my ships to break through. then if they can't make it to the shore in 1 turn i can slaughter their ships.
 
It would help if naval combat is extended though an "interception" possibility, as with fighters now, circling above the city. The new air combat promotions could be used in a similar way for naval combat.

Jaca
 
Boats should act more like airplanes than they do.

They should have a range and a base. They should be able to execute orders, such as "intercept ships in this region", "carry troops to that location", "explore that way", etc.

As technology improves, the number of "moves" and the range of ships (which are different concepts) would grow significantly.

This also allows for ships to take damage from longer trips -- representing needing time to refurbish and refuel if they attempt to extend their range.
 
I'm also happy with the system the way it is. If you see an opponent with Transports full of troops, move yours land troops to the cities close to where he's planning on landing. He can't move once he unloads his units, until the next turn. You have that one turn to inflict serious collateral damage, and possibly obiterate his entire force. You'll also be able to destory his Transports the same turn = no more reinforcements. That's why it's so important to build Railorads along entire coastline - so you can always get anywhere with most of your troops within 1 turn.

What I've done in the past, in order to get a foothold on another continent (and this is against humans who are not as easily fooled as AI), is within 1 turn bombard city defences to 0 with my Battleships, and attack directly from transports, even though it costs me -50%. Plenty of Artillery, and some Marines help. Once you capture the city, you can move the tranports with still unused units inside, and since you're inside the city, you can just move the units - the same turn!
 
The problem is, even if you have ships patroling your coasts, you cannot stop a naval invasion: ships go through your defenses and land their troops.

So, what about Zones Of Control for ships?

If a ship moves close to an enemy naval unit (during a war), it can be hit/stopped/sunk/whatYouLike.

Yes, I also think this would make naval power more important also. I agree that this is the problem.

Probably best is to have a chance of interception, and the closer the enemy ship gets to yours, the higher the probability.

Breunor
 
Boats should act more like airplanes than they do.

They should have a range and a base. They should be able to execute orders, such as "intercept ships in this region", "carry troops to that location", "explore that way", etc.

As technology improves, the number of "moves" and the range of ships (which are different concepts) would grow significantly.

This also allows for ships to take damage from longer trips -- representing needing time to refurbish and refuel if they attempt to extend their range.
I think this sums it up pretty well. The extra plus side of this is that you can take real strategic decisions by giving them this kind of orders, rather then mechanically moving the things. It will speed up the game too.

Jaca
 
Back
Top Bottom