Strange Immunities (MOO1)

[Inca]

Hello guys!

I'm new to the forum - so I'll start with giving you a summary of my game experience with MOO1 so far. I started playing MOO1 a few months ago. I have played quite a few strategy games in my life before (not CIV though) but I have to admit that this game is pretty darn tough. At the very start I did not even win a single game on simple level. I realized I had to read more about the game and found Sirian's tutorial which was a great help. I also read through his game protocols and through Sulla's game protocols too. Helped me a great deal. I started winning comfortably on simple level. Passed on to easy level then. Did not find that to be any different from simple level. But then I got a cold shower when passing on to average level. There seems to be a huge leap in difficulty between easy and average. So I had the same experience once more: Not winning a single game on average for quite a while. But I did not give up. I kept on reading and kept on playing and started to win a few games on average. Still lost most of them though. Kept on playing...

So finally now I am in a position where I have won at least once with every race on average level. Also the number of games I'm losing has decreased a lot. That is where I am now. I still find the game is giving me a good challenge on average level. So I'm not ready to pass on to hard yet.

After the intro now on to the actual thread.

Lately I have been experiencing the AI getting some odd immunities that were causing me trouble.

It first happened when I was playing the rocks and my main enemy were the Klacks. It was the end game and I was close to winning. At that point the Klackons got this odd total immunity to any missile attacks. They attacked one of my planets that had 468 missile bases on it. All of my planets had more than 400 missile bases at that point. It was a long game. I was shooting Zeons. Actually I had just stolen Zeons from the Klacks a few turns earlier. Their ships did not seem to be anything special. They were slow as hell (usual thing about the Klackons being poor at propulsion). So they had very low beam defense and also very low missile defense. Also they only used 2 points of shielding. But they had the black hole generator. I was a bit bugged in Force Field technology in that game. They had missiles on their ships. I don't exactly recall which ones but they were still capable of doing some minor damage to my missile bases with those missiles. The main thing of course was the black hole generator and I had no fleet in orbit.

Now the big surprise: 468 missile bases shooting Zeons. I thought that would wipe them right out. No way Jose!! I did not even do a single point of damage!! I should have done some kind of damage!! Nothing. I kept shooting at them and their ships stayed intact. They only had that black hole generator. No other specials. When they finally got close to the planet they dramatically reduced my number of missile bases with the black hole generator. But fortunately they withdrew when they ran out of missiles. I still won that game. But then the same kind of thing occurred in another game!!

Since the Klackon ships were so low on defence I first thought it must have been something about the black hole generator. But when the same thing happened in another game where I was playing Bulrathis and my main enemies where the Meklars the Meklars did not use the black hole generator but their ships got the same immunity as the Klackon ships in the other game. So it might not have anything to do with the black hole generator. This was in the end game again. I thought I was about to win the game. But the Meklars got yet another immunity on top of that!!

As I was trying to bomb some of their planets into oblivion I did not get the window where it asks you whether you want to bomb the planet. I did it the usual way: Destroyed their ships, destroyed their missile bases and then kept my ships in orbit. Thinking I would bomb the system on the start of the next turn. My ships where sporting neutronium bombs - the strongest bomb in the game. But I was not allowed to bomb the planet that way! Left the ships in orbit for another turn and still did not get the window where it asks whether you want to bomb the planet.

This made me lose that game. They could wipe out my planets without even taking damage but I could not bomb theirs. Had to take them the hard way with colonist transports. I quit at that point. It was clear that they could run me down faster than I could run down them. Would have won that game if it wasn't for those strange immunities.

I've got no clue how they ever got those immunities and what caused them. In the other game the Klackons at least did not have that planetary immunity against bombing. I could bomb their planets and that way I won. But in the game against the Meklars I could not even do that - so I lost.

I remember that the Meklars found the ancient derelict in that game. I faintly remember the Klackons finding it too in the other game but I'm not at all sure any more. It may have something to do with that but I might be totally wrong.

I have been pondering a lot of theories as to how they got those immunities but nothing seems to work out as an explanation.

Some more about the Meklar ships in the second game. They had the Zyro shield and they also had high deflector shielding. But I have shot down scores of ships featuring the Zyro shield with missiles before. Even the lightning shield does not give total immunity. One of the Meklar ship design also had the cloaking device on top of that. But they used another design without the cloaking device and both designs where equally immune against my missiles. Also I have shot down similarly equipped ships of the Psilons with missiles before. Even if they have lightning shield plus class 15 deflectors plus cloaking device both Herculars and Zeons and even Pulsons still do damage if you shoot a lot of them. Have had that quite a few times and still shot down big stacks of ships with that kind of protection. But here in this case - zilch.

In this game the planet in question had 309 missile bases and I was shooting Herculars. So I was a bit weaker here than in the other game against the Klackons. But still I should have done some kind of damage!! It shouldn't have been that I did zero points of damage. And even the Meklar ships here where moving slow. So I got to shoot at them several times before they got close to the planet. Never doing a single point of damage. I was researching Zeons at that time. Yet something tells me that Zeons wouldn't have helped me here. I had pLanetary shield 20 myself plus level 9 deflector shields. Was just researching level 15 deflectors. They had strong torpedos on their ships (do not remember which ones but enough to blast through my shielding). Took them a long time to destroy all of my missile bases. I still would have shot them down if it wasn't for that immunity. No fleet of my own on this planet either. Couldn't keep a fleet on every planet.

And then there was that other immunity as well: Planets being totally immune against Neutronium bombs. Never had that before. I could bomb them during the tactical combat (unfortunately not destroying the colony since they had Neutronium armor and maximum shielding too). But on the inter-turn I could not bomb them.

Some more things I remember about the Meklar planets: Most of them had a stargate. The ones I attacked all had the stargate. Also they had subspace interdictors. But I have had both of these myself in a game against the Psilons and the Psilons where allowed to bomb my planets. Also I had researched both of these in this game too. Just hadn't built stargates myself yet. So that probably has nothing to do with it. The Meklars also had researched the Oracle Interface. And I had stolen it from them. So I had it too - at least as an available tech. Still don't know what it actually is good for. Have not used it myself yet. Don't know whether it has anything to do with the immunities or not. It was not listed as a special on their ships when they attacked me. I think the Klackons did NOT have it in the other game when their ships where immune to missiles. Still thinking about the ancient derelict ... (never got that myself unfortunately - only the AIs found it in my games so far). Quite a few things about the game I don't know yet.

It also strikes me that the Meklars had that planetary immunity while the Klackons didn't and still the Klackons had the same immunity against missiles. There might be two different causes for these immunities.

So I haven't got a clue what actually caused these immunities. I only know that both times it happened during the end game phase. If anyone has some idea I would much appreciate to hear it.

 

[sargon0]

Inca, welcome to the forum. Sounds like you are progressing nicely up the difficulty levels. Hard can be a big jump until you work out how to be efficient. As well as the great guides you mention check out the succession games on this forum for ideas.

I have played MOO for years and have not seen or heard of special AI immunities. Sometimes you get an unexpected result but usually it can be explained by something you missed or just unlucky pRNG (although 400+ MB would normally exclude the latter). I have the game manual and the strategy guide so can tell you that BHG, Stargate, Subspace Interdictors, Oracle Interface & Ancient Derelict give no defence to incoming missiles. Oracle Interface halves shielding for beams on top of any halving done by the beam itself. Ancient Derelict event gives up to 10 free discoveries of weapons & force field techs on your research list that are up to 10 technology levels above your current level.

Only relevant things are asteroids then Anti-Missiles/Zyro Shield/Lightning Shield plus Displacement Device then defence from maneuverability, ship size plus ECM plus cloak then shield which is normally the only way for total immunity. Did you check your missile bases were actually firing Zeon missiles or did you assume that they were because you had the technology? Sometimes the game does not immediately reflect this change. Also check you are not firing scatter packs instead of your best missile against heavily shielded targets.

The bombing ‘immunity’ is very odd; some ship armaments do not allow planet bombing but bombs certainly do! Only thing I can think of is if you still had an Alliance or a Non-aggression Pact with the race which somehow was still in force. Although they did bomb your planets or was this later on after diplomacy changed?

Best thing is to attach a savegame with your post and we can check it out for you. Good luck either way with your progress and feel free to ask any questions as you do.

 

[vmxa]

If you posted a save we could try to figure it out. One thing I would say is you need to not build all those bases. You will eat your research with the expense. I see no reason to have so many bases at any level.

100 plus is a large number, 400 is crazy. You need a better plan.

 

[Inca]

Hello Sargon!

Thanks for your quick reply. Yes, I figured that moving from Average to Hard would be a big leap. Also in terms of gaming fun and further developing my skills it is not necessary now since the scenarios I'm getting on Average are so diverse and hold so many surprises that I don't feel bored on Average.

Having turned on Scatter-Packs instead of the good Zeons! Damn, I did not think of that. You might actually be right about this. I had used Scatter-Packs some time in a previous battle. But I thought the program automatically switches back to missiles in the next battle.

This planet that formerly held 468 MBs had been attacked several times before. But there had been a long time gap in between, where the Klacks and I had been at peace. So I might have used Scatter-Packs in another fight at that planet 50 turns before that and not have turned back to missiles. Have to check that more consistently next time.

About the orbital-bombardment screen not showing up:

Sometimes when I have transports on their way and do not want to use orbital bombardment I do not get asked every turn, whether I want to bomb the planet but only every other turn. I'm not completely sure about how the program decides when to give me that window and when not to. But knowing that sometimes that window does not pop up I still waited for some turns and still did not get that window.

I had a few small fights with lonesome Meklar ships on that system in question for a few turns with my ships in orbit. These ships where no problem to defeat. I had more than 2400 missile boats in orbit (with 5 shot Herculars) and a few Huge Ships with Energy Focus and 75 Tachyon Beams on each ship. But it occured to me that the Meklars might sent those ships through the stargate. So maybe the stargate might have something to do with it after all.

It was the game where I had 309 missile bases on the planet and could not do any damage to their fleet. I guess this shock made me lose my mind a bit when that other thing with the lacking orbital bombardment window happened shortly afterwards.

But I'm still not quite sure about all of what actually happened there.

About attachments: Just starting to learn these things as well. I have seen other members also put screenshots in their posts and sometimes put condensed text and screenshots into a "quote button". Still don't know how this works - especially the thing with having both text and screenshots in a quote button. I would appreciate some hints about this.

For the games that I'm losing on Average I have found they usually fall into one of the following three categories:

1) Lots of poor, ultra-poor and small non-inhabitable planets around the starting position of the game. No "normal" planets nearby. By the time I finally manage to get somewhere the AI have already taken all the good worlds and defend them too well. Strangely
I seem to be getting this situation a lot when playing the Humans.

2) Being locked in by two strong races. I have had this a lot of times when playing the Sakkras. Once when I was locked in right from the start by Psilons and Klackons I actually managed to get out of that trap but it was a very very long game. In the end I really outresearched the Psilons when we were both running up the advanced techs. And I had to take (and defend) Orion which luckily was in my corner. I built more than 700 MBs on Orion in that game. Learned a lot from that game too. But on other occasions before that I did not make it to break out. Weird things in that particular game though. The Psilons kept getting the negative fleet bug over and over again. In the end that actually helped me becausce that way they kept their old designs for too long and their monster SOD with more than 100,000 ships was moving too slow. They also stole Death Ray from me and then I saw Psilon colony ships with a Death Ray on them. Really weird stuff. But I won in the end.

3) Being engaged in early conflict. This usually happens when I get the Mrrshans as my neighbours. I usually prevail in this conflict but it costs me so much in terms of resources that I get behind the other races in my development and then I just cannot catch up. In one of these games the Mrrshans where actually trying to lock me in. I was playing Sakkras with starting position to the center West of the map and the Mrrshans where placed east of me - threatening to block access to the whole rest of the map. So I had no choice but go to war. I defeated them but during that time the Meklars had spread like wildfire and I had no chance to ever catch up. The only time I got out of this well was when I played the Bulrathis. I stole so many planets from the Mrrshans with my gropo advantage that I more than made up for what they stole from me. But when I play other races and get that early Mrrshan conflict I usually lose the whole game.

I'm still having trouble with these situations on Average level. Next time I get something like this I might actually post some saves here to get more ideas on how to win in those cases. I usually save the start of a game. Sometimes when it doesn't work out well I replay it from the start - which is of course cheating. But even with this "cheat" there has been one Bulrathi game that I started three times over and lost all three times. Haven't
kept that saved start though. The file has been overwritten. Despite these problems I'm really glad to have found this great classic. It already has become one of my favourite strategy games.

 

[Inca]

@vmxa

Needing a better plan.... Okay, I know I'm not offensive enough yet in my gameplay. I still lack the confidence of an experienced player in judging when it's time to go on the offensive. So I tend to overprotect my systems. Since you have confidence in your skills you feel safe with 100 MBs on a planet. I don't feel safe with that yet.

Of course I don't build that many bases when I still need the money for research. The time when these bases are built is when the planets are up to a point where only two clicks on the defence slider give me 3 or even 4 MBs per year on a planet. So I still have a lot to spend on research nonetheless.

You might say when I get to the point where I can build that many bases with that little money I have already won the game. Probably that is so. But I'm not that good in combat yet. Also still experimenting a lot with ship designs, having to learn more about what kind of ships to use in different situations. You have to see I just won on Average for the very first time only five or six weeks ago. Before that I only lost on Average, every single time. So it's no wonder I'm still lacking the confidence.

As for the blocked orbital bombardment I now remember that the Meklars sent one or two ships through the stargate every turn while I had my ships in orbit. So there was a combat every turn. The bombs where on my huge ships and also on 113 large ships I had (forgot to mention that above). My whole fleet was double that amount. I had left half of it over Bootis, a rich planet with 135 Pop that I had taken from the Meks shortly before the blocking of the bombardment on that other planet happened. Probably I should have just split off another fleet and go to yet another planet of theirs and try to bomb that too. That way they sooner or later wouldn't have been able to organize a combat on every turn where I had my ships in orbit.

If this really is the explanation then the AI is quite clever. It would mean that the program knows that enrolling me in minor combats on a planet with a stargate every turn would keep me from bombing the planet. And with a stargate on almost all of their Planets they could easily make sure my fleet in orbit would be enrolled in a combat every turn. Seeing this now I might actually adopt this strategy myself in some future game. You don't even need to send something strong through the stargate. A small fighter with a single laser on it would be enough to force a combat and delay the orbital bombardment for another turn. Still not sure whether this actually is the correct explanation though.

Also with hindsight I could have done something else. I usually went for those Meklar ships right away when they popped up every turn. With the High Energy Focus I could destroy them before they could even move. I should have left them alive (they would have retreated anyways with the fleet I had there) and bomb the planet instead while still in combat because at least during those small combats I would have been allowed to bomb the planet. My ships were fast enough to reach the planet before the Meklar ships could retreat. So if this happens again I will probably do it that way. I still can't seem to keep a cool head in an unusual game situation. I had almost won that game - I just lost my head. Quite typical for a nOOb actually....

 

[vmxa]

I would not have 100 bases up either, except in a very rare situation. Note that a 3 or 4 bases per turn, that is 100 turns of making bases. 100 turns is very long time.

I am not sure what the star gates have to do with bombing. It allow one to send ships in one turn, but after a battle concludes, you should be able to bomb, unless the turn was not a win.

IOW, did your ship retreat? If so did you use the reroute bug to put them back on the planet? That would explain why you had no opportunity to bomb. Now I have seen circumstances where I was not allowed to bomb and had not been defeated or it was not a draw.

In any event, use your fleet to beat them late in the game. By the time Zeon missiles are around I would expect missiles to be of little value. Ships usually can get to the planet too fast at that stage and require fleets to defend them.

Try to locate their largest stacks and go after them or flatten the planets, which ever you can do the best.

Large and huge maps will allow the AI to get large fleets unless you are doing something to keep them thinned out. One way I do that is to stay at war all the time, so they are constantly sending in fleets to be trimmed.

Another way is to just keep taking down their planets. This keeps pressure on so they are not able to build up those massive fleets.

Watch your empire numbers and see how much you are spending on base support and fleet support. Even on small maps you can usually find planets that do not need bases or do not need them any longer. Sell those off to reduce your cost.

Good luck.

 

[Zed-F]

The 'no damage with missiles' problem is likely due to using scatters instead of regular missiles. Also note that when you acquire a new technology you need to put a trickle of funds into base-building to upgrade your bases to use that new technology. A single tick on the defense bar is usually ample (unless you are building planetary shields.)

Situations where you can't bomb an enemy planet that I know of include (a) you're allied with that race, (b) you have another allied AI also present at the battle (on either side, yours or theirs), or (c) you do enough damage at the battle screen to kill the planet without resorting to bombing. In fact if you want to bomb and you have overwhelming firepower the best place to do it is at the battle screen so you can ensure it happens.

Stacking up huge piles of bases for defense is actually counterproductive in many cases, as is over-building your fleet. You pay maintenance costs on every base and warship you build, which takes away from your economy. Likewise with spying and spy defense. This doesn't reduce the number of ticks you have to allocate on the slider, but it can make each tick worth less -- a LOT less, if you have 400 bases at your planets! I would not be surprised if you were tying up the bulk of your economy on maintenance costs. It is much better to have a smaller number of bases backed by a tech advantage that gives them immunity to enemy fire or the ability to slaughter enemy ships quickly, than it is to build enormous static defenses, because that tech advantage also applies to your ships and economy, whereas static defenses only help if an enemy attacks at that particular planet.

Bases are expensive to build in the early game and a few goes a long way. Before you get a decent missile such as Scatter V or Merculite, you really only need a handful of bases (i.e. 5 or less) as the only reason they are there is to have something with a shield on the planet, which can hold off early popgun fighters. Once you have a planetary shield and a decent missile and battle computer, say around TL 10-15, bases become a formidable defense, and remain so for quite a while. In the middle of the game, ~20 bases is a substantial bulwark. Bases do start getting outclassed as ships get faster, though. You could build more to compensate, but once tech starts getting that high it tends to be more worthwhile to press the offense yourself than to concentrate too much on defense. The end-game techs are designed to help end the game and not allow it to continue to drag on.

Lastly there are a number of good SGs posted here which you can read about (any thread starting with OSG.) There are a lot of tips on gameplay you can find therein. I would suggest your biggest problem is concentrating too much on defense and not enough on early expansion. The key to winning in most 4X games is to expand as rapidly as possible in the early game and focus on getting your economy as big as you can as quickly as you can, while also trying to curtail the expansion of the other races. MOO is no exception.

 

[sargon0]

Well Zed and vmxa have covered the most important ground. I’ll just add some ideas about the more awkward starts you mention - you will know of these anyway but sometimes it is easy to overlook the basics. Assuming you are scouting & blockading aggressively and concentrating on propulsion & planetology tech to continue your expansion then -

Ultra-poor, poor & hostile planets Unlucky if you draw a number of these but they still can be useful. Ultra-poor are so hard to build up and defend many prefer just to grow and tech on them. Poor planets are also good candidates for early research but usually can be made more productive over time. Hostile planets mean concentrate on necessary planetology tech to settle them before AI then boost size with terraforming tech.

Blocked in The human player is guaranteed more room at the start than the AI races but it may still prove inadequate. Just follow general advice to blockade early and grab quickly what you can. Defend key planets early if you cannot quickly settle them and AI’s are in range.

Early conflict Best avoided but can be survived. Start minimal trade with each AI when first met to improve relations to try and avoid early wars. Defending against the warrior races early is difficult, just remember you can usually out-expand and out-produce them while they spend resources building military. As Zed mentions, even a single base with Deflector Shield 2 (do not delay this too long) can defend against hordes of laser armed enemies.

Apart from the OSG’s already mentioned, also on this forum are some documented solo challenges:
MoO1 Challenge: Meklar survival is at stake! http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252896 – a good example on medium map of being stuck with poor & hostile planets nearby with several good write-ups including some with early wars.
Challenge Moo1: The Bugs of Life http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256599 – a good example on small map of being blocked in at start.

Regarding attachments, I think the “quote button” with text & screenshots is where someone has quoted a previous message. To add attachments use the paper-clip button to upload pictures or savegames from your computer then use it again to attach them to your post.

Finally if you enjoy average then continue playing it. Keep playing and learning!

 

[Inca]

Hello vmxa and ZedF.

No I did not withdraw. Did not get the orbital bombardment window nonetheless. But since I have found a workaround now I know what to do when it occurs the next time.

Actually vmxa mentioned one of the problems that I'm usually having (mainly playing large maps with 5 opponents): The AI building up those monsterfleets.

In the scenario where I was playing Bulrathis and the main enemy where the Meklars I did not have cleanup tech at first. In fact I did not have any in my tech tree for about two thirds of the game. So actually most of the game I had to make do with a small number of bases since I just could not build more. Also I was lacking armor (nothing inbetween Duralloy and Neutronium).

Apart from the Meklars also the Klackons were building huge fleets in that game. And in this particular game the AI were all exceptionally aggressiver. Funnily they left me mainly untouched at the start - so I could grab a good chunk of systems but then at a certain point everybody went down on me all at once. I lost one rich planet with 30 bases by orbital bombardment. Did get it back though. Built it up again.

One thing that made it hard for me to decide what ships to build was the fact that the Klacks and the Meks where using a different type of Fleet. The Klacks were building fleets with more than 10,000 small ships in it accompanied by something like 200 large ships. The Meklars were building their usual mix of huge and large ships. So I needed something that could stand up both against those large numbers of small ships from the Klackons (they were using hard beam and Hyper X rockets). It took me a while to get up in Force Field research. I had a good amount of available shields in my tech tree - but being totally void of any cleanup tech I got those shield techs very late - even though I was prioritizing that.

I also needed a streaming weapon but had none in my tech tree (for those large numbers of Klackon ships). Finally managed to steal Tachyon beam but it took me ages to get that. But I got Missile tech rather fast. So I kept building missile boats until I finally got Tachyon Beam. Yet the missile boats where not good enough to take enemy planets. I was also missing a better bomb. Had Fusion bomb but it was not good enough any more with the shielding they had. Nothing in my tech tree in between Fusion bomb and Neutronium bomb. I managed to steal antimatter bomb but very late in the game when I was actually researching Neutronium bomb.

So despite having an early free run on a lot of planets this turned out to be quite a difficult game. Continuously decimating the Meklar and Klackon fleets just wasn't an option throughout most of that game. Once I got Advanced Eco Restoration through spying the game changed a lot. That was the point where I could actually start to do something. Had not done much spying before that because I just could not afford it. Only started spying then and had to climb up the ladder (first spying on the Humans and Sakkras which had inferior computer tech). Strangely in both games where I had these AI Immunities I had strong Mrrshans but they did not cause me much trouble. In the end phase when I was finally able to build a suitable fleet the Meklars started to finish off all the other races. So I was running out of weaker victims to attack before going at the Meklars myself. I needed to be strong enough to defend at least a few freshly taken planets or I would lose them right away again. So I kept my fleet on those newly taken planets which in turn meant I could not use it to defend my older systems. So having a lot of missile bases actually was important in that game.

At the start I had not expected this scenario to become so demanding. I found the total lack of cleanup techs the biggest problem here. That is what mostly delayed me. Being the Bulrathis I was behind in computer tech at first - so early spying was out of the question. Still I was not all too worried for a long time since I had the largest number of planets and managed to keep up in Pop numbers with Terraforming. In fact I had slightly more than 33 % of the votes on the first council vote and managed to keep that up throughout the rest of the game, gradually gaining a margin over those 33 % even without taking new systems.

I could have taken some Planets off the Humans early on. But I was struggling to defend what I already had. And the planets they had were not as good as the ones I had snatched. They took some of the poor worlds that I left out. Then they got the Supernova event on Sol and did not manage to prevent it going Nova. After that the only good planet they had was one Terran 80. In fact I took that one late in the game shortly before I met those problems with the AI immunities. They had terraformed it to 100 Pop by then. Despite not going on the offensive for a very long time after the first landgrab this was a very diverse and entertaining game though.

I do remember not getting the orbital bombardment window on other occasions. It's just that before this one game I never had it happen that I did not get it over more than 5 turns with a fleet in orbit. The Meklars enforcing those continuous small combats might have something to do with it. Or it might be a rare bug in the game. I don't know.

The other game where I only got that "Missile Immunity" of the Klackons near the end was my first ever game playing the Silicoids. I had not played them before. But I quickly got used to building pop with the ECO slider. At first it's quite amazing how fast they can build factories without having to care about waste. But soon after they get crippled by the slow pop growth. So ironically I ended up putting more into the ECO slider playing the Coids than I usually do with other races, just to get my Pop up. On the other hand there is less stuff to research so they do advance in tech quite quickly. I also got a good initial run on a lot of habitable systems in that game - was not restricted to small non-habitable systems. Nonetheless that being my very first game with the rocks I preferred to play it safe. Both the Mrrshans and the Klackons had huge fleets. Even the Mrrshans were building scores of huge ships. They even managed to outrun the Klackons a few times. So part of the time I was up against the Mrrshans in the Council vote. Then the Klackons grew slightly faster but the Mrrshans managed to overtake the Klackons again.

Having got a very successful initial landgrab I was mainly busy defending what I already had in that game too. It wasn't a very difficult game actually. Just the novelty of playing the rocks for the very first time made me be more careful than usual. Could have gone on the offensive earlier in that one if I had wanted to. But there was one thing I wanted to do in particular: Pay revenge to the Humans. They had stabbed me in the back when I got the comet event. There was one rich radiated I had taken near their frontier and I thought it was pretty safe (thinking they did not have radiated yet). But they researched it extra to take that one planet. They must have put everything they got into Planetology - neglecting everything else. When I got the comet event I pulled off my fleet from that planet and they probably got radiated tech just on that same turn. So they moved in just when I had to go to fend off the comet which was threatening another system at the far end of my empire. We were not at war at that time. These were "honorable" Humans. Go figure. They bombarded the planet for several turns but did not manage to destroy the colony. Despite being the Coids I managed to partly regrow the Pop. I had only colonized that planet shortly before that. Since it was a rich planet I pumped reserve into it and got to build the Class V Shield and one missile base just on time when it was getting a close shave with the Pop and chased away their fleet while destroying the comet at the same time. But they had done some other nasty things as well. I thought that these Humans were so honorable that I really had to exterminate them. Knowing that it was pretty safe to win at that point I hunted down the human planets and pretty much igrnored the Klackons and Mrrshans. So the game actually lasted longer because I wanted that revenge. Just kept building missile bases in the rest of the empire. So I ended up with those vast numbers (400+ on every planet). Yes, even with 4 bases per year that is 100+ turns. But one of the reasons why I prefer strategy games is that they last me longer than other games. With an RPG or an Adventure you play it a few times and then you know almost everything about the game. With a classic strategy game like Age of Wonders 1 (AoW) or MOO1 you can play it for years and still not know everything and still find new challenges.

When I got that "missile immunity" of the Klackons (after committing genocide on the Humans) it did not worry me too much. I still could bomb their planets in that game. I only lost my head when I could not bomb that Meklar planet in the other game.

So I'm not struggling that much on Average any more. Most of the time I do get through quite decently now. But what vmxa said (keeping down the size of the enemy fleets before they build thousands of ships; I know he has said that many times before) is still beyond my abilities at the moment. Vmxa - if you could write a "beginners guide" with all the aspects of how to keep down enemy fleet sizes while doing the build-up it would help me and other noobs. Yet I will consider trying some sporadic hit and run tactics (attacking enemy systems without really intending to take them) in earlier phases of the game, when I'm not ready for the big roll yet. It's true that I am waiting too long before I do something. Even if I don't do much damage with that it might at least serve to confuse them. Actually I have used that strategy in other games. Just wasn't ready for it yet in MOO1. Also I have started reading through the OSG threads now.

While having a hard time with MOO1 at first I am now greatly enjoying it. I just love those vile and mean dialogues the AI are giving me. Always have a good laugh when they consider *MY* systems to be theirs. And when I keep a fleet on a virgin planet that is on the far end of the galaxy from their reign they tell me that is "their" system while they haven't even scouted it, demanding that I remove my ships from "their" border. And when I finally get the tech to settle that system and colonize it they declare war. Sometimes I wonder how they ever knew that this one was an ultra rich radiated planet (base size 40 even) if they never got to scout it and did not have advanced space scanner yet. This is where the AI is cheating a bit. Yet it was kind of logical - I wouldn't have defended it so well if it had been worthless. So they had a point in assuming that it must have been a good planet. Can't blame them. I also find it funny that there exist "Pacifistic Militarists". Well, they were not pacifistic in the game where I met them..... It was a Sakkra leader actually. He was quite aggressive.

 

[Inca]

Still answering to Sargono: You posted while I wrote my post. Interesting thing
about using poor planets for early research. Just read that in the OSG22 thread too. I had been using them to grow Pop to feed other newly acquired planets. But using them for research instead of struggling to build up defense and factories is also a good idea.

I had already read the "Meklars Survival is at Stake" (found it when it was still called "Can these poor Meklars survive"). Also found Sulla's reading on it and had already read it. But I will have a look at the "Bugs of Life thread". That one I haven't read yet.

So thanks for all the help guys. Will be offline for a while now. But might have a look again a bit later in case there is still something you want to add.

 

[RefSteel]

Welcome aboard, Inca! I don't think I can really add much to what Zed, Sargon, and vmxa have already contributed. Expand aggressively (choosing your tech spending toward that end) in the early game, never spend on missile bases on any world that hasn't maxed factories (and not even then in the early game if the planet could be used to spam colony ships instead) except in an emergency, and you should be in a position to take the war to the enemy long before anyone has end-game technologies. One thing confused me though:

I had already read the "Meklars Survival is at Stake" (found it when it was still called "Can these poor Meklars survive").

It was "Meklar Survival is at Stake" from the moment I posted it. (And I know I'd never have posted "Can these poor Meklars survive" - for one thing, I idiosyncratically prefer to use "Meklar" as its own plural form.) Where'd you see the alternate name?

 

[Inca]

Hello RefSteel,

I faintly recall seeing something like "Can these poor Meklars survive" when visiting the forum as a guest quite a while ago where I hadn't registered yet. Then on another visit shortly afterwards it had changed to "Meklar Survival is at Stake". I might confuse things here in my memory though. So no offence intended. Impossible is still far beyond me though and such a tough one as that Meklar game anyways. I tend to get similar maps on Average though - and even then I'm struggling.

I've just read through the "Exemplary Cats" thread and thoroughly enjoyed that. There are a few questions I wanted to ask you. What screenshot program do you use? And what program(s) do you use to edit them afterwards? Also I have seen these buttons that hide part of a post and can be expanded to show the long version. I would like to know how that is done with the forum engine.

Since you seem to be quite experienced in fiddling with the forum engine I might ask about another thing I noted with many forum engines (not just this one): I don't seem to be able to indent text. "Tab" has a different function and if I try doing it with line break and spaces the engine "corrects" that and the result looks awkward. Is there any way to do that? Or is it just not possible?

We have pretty much finished the main thread. So I hope the mods won't be angry about me asking those general things here....

 

[Sullla]

Hey Inca, nice to meet you. One thing I noticed that I might be able to add here:

One thing that made it hard for me to decide what ships to build was the fact that the Klacks and the Meks where using a different type of Fleet. The Klacks were building fleets with more than 10,000 small ships in it accompanied by something like 200 large ships. The Meklars were building their usual mix of huge and large ships. So I needed something that could stand up both against those large numbers of small ships from the Klackons (they were using hard beam and Hyper X rockets).

This little paragraph left me with a thought: perhaps you are focusing too much on the AI fleets (?) As long as you can stop the AIs from burning down your worlds with your missile bases, what they have on their designs is more of a secondary concern than a main threat. I got the impression that you're thinking in terms of beating their fleets in space combat; if so, that's the wrong mentality! On Impossible, 95% of the time the AIs have unbeatable fleets that I can't touch away from the protection of my bases. In fact, if the situation ever arises where I *CAN* stand up to their fleets, the game is already won and it's just a matter of going through the motions of taking their planets.

The real challenge in this game is how to take and secure planets in a situation where you can't stand up to the enemy fleets. This is difficult, but eminently doable. The key is to sneak in and grab worlds while the usually slow AI stack of doom is lumbering around on the other side of the galaxy. Then you fill the new conquest with immigrants from your other planets, max reserve spending to get factories and bases stood up quickly, and flip the target around into a secure base of your own in a matter of turns. Rich and Ultra Rich planets are some of the most choice locations for this sort of thing.

If you're already accustomed to doing this sort of thing in the face of an unbeatable AI fleet, fantastic! If not, that's the kind of thing that you might want to practice doing. Because if you're waiting until you've got the best fleet to go on the offensive, then your games are going to take a very... long... time - and that situation probably won't arise at all on the highest difficulty level unless you do something to MAKE it happen.

 

[RefSteel]

So no offence intended.

No cause for offense in the slightest; I just wondered if someone in some other forum or something had linked to that thread with a tag line like that (which would have been neat).

As for your formatting questions: Check out the pictorial control panel directly above the text box when you're typing your post. There are lots of options up there. You can also use the "quote" button in the lower right hand corner of a post that uses formatting tricks you like, and reverse engineer it from there (remember to cancel your reply afterward though). As far as I know, there's no good way to indent the first line of a paragraph in this (or almost any) forum.

I don't think my picture editing tips will help you, as my dinosaur of a computer is running Windows 98(!) but I just hit Print Screen when the game is up, paste the resulting screenshot into an ancient version of bare-bones Photoshop (called Adobe Photodeluxe) and work with it from there. I also sometimes copy and paste to and from Paint (and sometimes even resize in Powerpoint) just because of the limitations of each of my decade-old graphics programs when used alone.

 

[neutrino]

I would not have 100 bases up either, except in a very rare situation. Note that a 3 or 4 bases per turn, that is 100 turns of making bases. 100 turns is very long time.

The only occasions in which I bothered to build 50+ missile bases: Rich or U-rich planets within the confines of nebulae (Planetary shield is inoperable within nebula!) and they happen to be my key production facilities.

I am not sure what the star gates have to do with bombing. It allow one to send ships in one turn, but after a battle concludes, you should be able to bomb, unless the turn was not a win.

Sounds weird .......

At any rate, I think Intergalactic Star Gates goes quite well for those who also have Improved/Advance Space Scanner (any one of these techs will allow you to detect both the ETA and the direction of incoming non-friendly fleet): Instead of having to invest so much into individual planetary defenses, you have a few concentrated fleet of defenders to jump all over your own Star-Gated systems to take on intruders. (On the down side, this may involve quite a bit more of micromanagement.)

 

[vmxa]

I know what star gates are and what they can do for you. I just did not see how it could have any effect on the bombing not being allowed. No effect, is what I would guess.

 

[malicious bloke]

This is a wierd one. The only problem i've ever had using the "silly numbers of missile bases in lieu of ships" defence is when an enemy has ships equipped with sub space teleporter or inertial nullifier AND technology nullifier. I tend to lose quite a lot of bases once they get close and start spamming TN every turn.

Scatterpack bases are nice in the mid-game but later on you need something nicer.

That said, I normally have a few rounds of scatterpack X's loaded onto my larger hulls along with bigger missiles late on, it's a cheaper way of dealing with the smaller enemy hulls, i find

 

[vmxa]

The way to offset teleporter, is to either have interdicors on the planet or to have a ship with teleporters as well. Late game the way to deal with ships is to have better ships than the AI.

Autoblaster, gausscannons or pulse phasers can handle stacks of small/med ships. Missiles suck on ships after mid game as the get a limited number of shots.

 

[Zed-F]

Alternatively, you can forget about the enemy stacks of doom and simply go around them to hit where they are not.

Of course, you can often do that earlier in the game as well...

 

[vmxa]

Yes, but you need to either defeat those stacks or retreat them late in the game as they may have planet busting stuff. The AI loves torps and plasma torps will bust all shields.

I think they are talking about that late as scatter pack X are very late in the tree.