Strange Inclusions in City Lists

[Gyra Solune]

In short, the names of cities for various civilizations are just outright weird and include some that just shouldn't be there. Lemme point out the biggest examples.

Arabia doesn't include Riyadh, which might be understandable given Riyadh wasn't important at the time of the early caliphate, but then most civs tend to include ones founded beyond the time period most heavily drawn from.

America is just strange. It's a titanic city list, of course, but then there's many examples of strange exclusions and baffling inclusions. Okay, okay, I get Hunt Valley, that's where Sid Meier was born. But there's things like Centralia (either a burned-down ghost town of no significance or a Washington college town of no significance), Santa Monica (neighborhood of LA), Monterey, Palo Alto, Santa Cruz, Oakland, and of course Le Bam at the end, but then there's big outright exclusions, such as Charlotte, Tallahassee, Raleigh, Austin, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City, and a whole mess of other state capitals and major cities.

Egypt is right behind America in terms of number of cities, and throws in a number of names that are just alternate spellings of previous cities, alongside a handful of Nubian cities at the end.

China includes a lot of weird district names over actual cities, which seems silly given the absolutely astonishing number of immense cities that exist in China today.

England includes an odd one, The Mumbles, which appears to be in Wales (all other English city names are only in England itself, the Celts cover the rest).

Germany literally has one named Braunschweig/Brunswik. Yes, exactly how it's typed there. That ought to be redone to either, preferably to Braunschweig as that's how it's known in German.

Greece has Apolyton at the end, which is not a city at all, but a reference to a fansite, which just seems...mrr.

India has Lahore and Karachi, which, to my knowledge, have had hardly anything to do with India ever. Karachi ought to be a city-state if anything, especially given it's the absolute last city on India's list.

Japan is confusing as a lot of it refers to historical districts, and not existing cities today. I suppose I get it, but it's kinda disorienting.

And really, a lot have simply far too many cities, mainly vanilla ones. 25 is a good average for how many should be needed, 30 at most.

 

[Jampine]

Gah! you've found the devs biggest weakness! I guess they didn't think that people would build that many cities, but forgot you can look it up in the SDK. But I agree that some city names are slightly confusing. The first 6 or so are understandable, for example, new York is the largest city in the USA, and Shanghai is the largest for China, and York is one of the largest and oldest cities in England.

One of the names that confuses me is Truo for the Celts, as Truo is in England. I think this might be because its in Cornwall (waaaayyyy down south), But even so, shouldn't that be for England instead of the Celts? Also, I think for USA, maybe all the cities bar the biggest, like new York and Chicago, should all be named after state capitals, as this would give them room for at least 50 cities (sorry if they ARE state capitals, I'm not American )

 

[Gyra Solune]

Gah! you've found the devs biggest weakness! I guess they didn't think that people would build that many cities, but forgot you can look it up in the SDK. But I agree that some city names are slightly confusing. The first 6 or so are understandable, for example, new York is the largest city in the USA, and Shanghai is the largest for China, and York is one of the largest and oldest cities in England.

One of the names that confuses me is Truo for the Celts, as Truo is in England. I think this might be because its in Cornwall (waaaayyyy down south), But even so, shouldn't that be for England instead of the Celts? Also, I think for USA, maybe all the cities bar the biggest, like new York and Chicago, should all be named after state capitals, as this would give them room for at least 50 cities (sorry if they ARE state capitals, I'm not American )

The Celts have a fair number of cities in Cornwall, actually, so I guess that was on purpose.

A lot of American state capitals aren't exactly noteworthy cities, 30 of them have populations under 200,000, putting them well below more than a hundred of the country's more populous ones. While, for example, Juneau is the state capital of Alaska, Anchorage is for the most part its main economic and cultural center, and all that really makes Juneau stand out is the fact that it has the capitol building. Same for New York really, NYC is by far the largest and most important city in the state, if not the country, yet it far eclipses Albany, the actual state capital. This is the case for most states, honestly, the big city that by many rights ought to be the capital cedes that to a much smaller place.

 

[bevelnator]

Spain has Asturias, a region, and Oviedo, the largest city in Asturias, in its' city list. The Celts have St. Johns, which actually kind of makes sense, given its' large Irish population (and they say Canada isn't represented, they get three city states and a city on the Celts list).Denmark has Faeroerne (the Faroe Islands) when it should get Torshavn. Denmark also has cities named Hellulland and Markland, which were lands the Vikings found. If they added Viking colonies in North Amreica, why didn't they add Vinland, the most famous? Also, my final tally for Canada is 3 city states and 3 cities, one on the Celts list and two on Denmarks, that sounds like plenty of representation.

 

[Gyra Solune]

Spain has Asturias, a region, and Oviedo, the largest city in Asturias, in its' city list. The Celts have St. Johns, which actually kind of makes sense, given its' large Irish population (and they say Canada isn't represented, they get three city states and a city on the Celts list).Denmark has Faeroerne (the Faroe Islands) when it should get Torshavn. Denmark also has cities named Hellulland and Markland, which were lands the Vikings found. If they added Viking colonies in North Amreica, why didn't they add Vinland, the most famous? Also, my final tally for Canada is 3 city states and 3 cities, one on the Celts list and two on Denmarks, that sounds like plenty of representation.

...The St. John in the Celtic city list is almost certainly referring to the one in Cornwall, not in Canada. And there are only two city-states in Canada, Vancouver and Quebec City. And yeah that thing with Spain is weird, and I was indeed expecting Vinland, though given that we're not entirely certain where exactly those three lands are, aside from "somewhere around northeastern Canada", having those two at all is surprising.

(also I still support Canada as a civ)

 

[loserforsale]

To be clear on the Celtic/English thing: there are six distinct surviving Celtic cultures: Scottish, Manx (from the Isle of Man), Irish, Welsh, Cornish (from Cornwall, a region in the south-west of England), and Breton (from Brittany, in northern France). The Celtic civ largely focuses upon the Gaelic populations, that is, Scottish, Irish and Manx - hence the Pictish warrior and the Ceilidh Hall. Boudicca doesn't really belong to any of these, coming as she does from Norfolk in the east-south-east of England. However, the city list represents all of these except perhaps the Manx group - there is Scottish (e.g. Edinburgh), Irish (e.g. Dublin), Welsh (e.g. Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrbwllllantisiliogogogoch), Cornish (e.g. Truro) and Breton (e.g. Nantes).

There is a certain amount of overlap between the English and Celtic civs - for example, most Longbowmen were actually Welsh, and occasionally fought against England, for example under the rebel Owain Glyndyr. However, by this point Wales had been annexed by England and the most famous uses of Longbows were in the service of English kings fighting against the French and the Scots. In this context, having Mumbles on the English list is a fairly small issue.

 

[Gyra Solune]

To be clear on the Celtic/English thing: there are six distinct surviving Celtic cultures: Scottish, Manx (from the Isle of Man), Irish, Welsh, Cornish (from Cornwall, a region in the south-west of England), and Breton (from Brittany, in northern France). The Celtic civ largely focuses upon the Gaelic populations, that is, Scottish, Irish and Manx - hence the Pictish warrior and the Ceilidh Hall. Boudicca doesn't really belong to any of these, coming as she does from Norfolk in the east-south-east of England. However, the city list represents all of these except perhaps the Manx group - there is Scottish (e.g. Edinburgh), Irish (e.g. Dublin), Welsh (e.g. Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrbwllllantisiliogogogoch), Cornish (e.g. Truro) and Breton (e.g. Nantes).

There is a certain amount of overlap between the English and Celtic civs - for example, most Longbowmen were actually Welsh, and occasionally fought against England, for example under the rebel Owain Glyndyr. However, by this point Wales had been annexed by England and the most famous uses of Longbows were in the service of English kings fighting against the French and the Scots. In this context, having Mumbles on the English list is a fairly small issue.

Actually the city list pretty much covers all six fairly well, considering there are exactly six cities in each one in this list.

Scotland: Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling, Glasgow, Inverness

Isle of Man: Douglas, Onchan, Ramsey, Peel, Castletown, St. John's

Ireland: Dublin, Belfast, Londonderry, Galway, Limerick, Cork

Wales: Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth, Conwy, Caernarfon, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll

Cornwall: Truro, St Austell, St Ives, Penzance, Newquay, Falmouth

Brittany: Nantes, Rennes, Brest, Lorient, Saint-Nazaire, Saint-Malo

So yes, I'd say concerted effort was put into evenly dividing them. ^^

 

[otaman1]

Samoa, Tonga, Nuku Hiva, and as well as other Polynesian cities are not cities at all but islands. It's kind of like saying Crete is a Greek city.

 

[Guandao]

My biggest problem with the Arabian city list-Khurasan is a region! not a city, the list is a lot shorter now due to the Moroccan cities being removed. I suggest adding some more Arabian peninsula cities, even ones with a more modern foundation.

Aztecs-Teotihuacan wasn't Aztec, they knew of it and gave it its name, but it was ruins by then. Tlaxcala and the Tarascan capital Tzintzuntzan were never under Aztec rule yet are still in the list. You might as well add Monte Alban.

China-hate this list. Dalian appears as Dairen in my games for some reason Liaoning, Hubei, Gansu, Xikang are not cities, plus too many minor cities from Guangdong. Was this list made by a Cantonese? No cities from Hainan, Fujian and other provinces.

Egypt-Giza is a pyramid site, as is Hawara, Abusir and Dashur, Raqote is another name for Alexandria,

England-why is Hastings so early in the list?

Iroquois-having cities like Montreal, Brantford, Buffalo, Akron, Cuba bothers me, they can find real, authentic Iroquois village names. No need to use modern cities in their past territory or even river/lake names.

Japan-a lot of old province names, much better to use town/city names in those provinces

Ottomans-it's spelt Ordu not Oidu

Persia-some cities are not identified, some important cities (Ctesiphon, Bishapur, Gundeshapur) are left out, Turengtepe is a neolithic site, Pteira (Pteria) is a battle site,

Rome-a lot of minor Italian cities, some are not in the list (Beneventum, Pisae, Capua)

Siam-I really think the Mon cities should not be in the list (Martaban, Hongsawadee, Thawaii)

Mongolia-Tiflis/Tbilisi should not be in the list, what is Sanchu (is that Xanadu/Shangtu?)

Inca-Tiwanaku wasn't Incan, some are modern cities/or districts in Peru, it is missing a lot of real Incan cities (like Ingapirca)

Spain-where is this city called Mida?

Indonesia-no Yogyakarta, Banda Aceh and some others

Poland-Lithuanian cities are in the list (though Vilnius has been taken out), Sweidnitz is the German form of the city's name

Portugal-why does Portugal get colonial city names? (Maputo, Goa, Bissau, Sao Tome and Principe) other European civs who had colonial empires don't have city names from their colonies (England, France, Spain) so why should Portugal?

 

[Syailendra]

indonesia is indeed the strangest, the leader and background is medieval while the city list is modern colonial built port cities. At least put Jakarta as Sunda Kelapa, the real native name. It is easy to mod though, so actually this rant is pointless.

 

[Grendeldef]

The city lists have always been a minor annoyances but somewhere after Sweden came along I had to edit the lists to keep playing.
It seems reasonable to include (old) Finnish cities there but not ones founded 1970s and it seemed an odd choice to use Finnish names of those cities instead of original Swedish ones.
Luckily the change is as close as Notepad or something similar.

 

[sav]

Anyone mentioned the presence of Aotearoa - a very much Westernised country - in the Polynesian list?

 

[Gyra Solune]

Polynesia's is odd, yes. They list mostly island names, not specific cities or settlements, and by the end it's dipping into very remote, sparsely inhabited atolls and islets. But then, Polynesia in general is an odd civilization. Solely the Kingdom of Hawaii would've been too little to represent, but using solely Hawaiian city names would be the easiest to do. The way it's set up, they basically have to represent the larger overall Polynesian cultures in a whole alongside three individual ones.

 

[linaker]

Including Londonderry as one of the Celtic cities is a bit of a blooper, since the Celtic population hate that name and always call it Derry. It would have been better to have chosen a city whose name is less controversial.

Also Mumbles is a strange inclusion as an English City. It's a small town that is really a suburb of Swansea. Most English people have never heard of it. I suppose the developers thought the name was amusing.

 

[sav]

Polynesia's is odd, yes. They list mostly island names, not specific cities or settlements, and by the end it's dipping into very remote, sparsely inhabited atolls and islets. But then, Polynesia in general is an odd civilization. Solely the Kingdom of Hawaii would've been too little to represent, but using solely Hawaiian city names would be the easiest to do. The way it's set up, they basically have to represent the larger overall Polynesian cultures in a whole alongside three individual ones.

There are just as many people in the city I live in, in New Zealand, as all of Hawaii, so that would be hardly fair!

 

[deity12]

There are just as many people in the city I live in, in New Zealand, as all of Hawaii, so that would be hardly fair!

Haha, oh well at least we exist on world maps . That's better than a lot of games.
(Total NZ population ~4.5 million btw)

 

[Hawaruna]

This is something that bothered me too! For many of the Civs I reorganized or changed the city lists. I gave two examples below, and I'm kind of curious as to whether anyone else has done the same. I included Polynesia, where I changed the island names to settlements; and Iroquois, where I tried to substitute out foreign names (the Firaxis names are in italics). I've changed a handful of others too (Japan, Inca, Celtia, and Mongolia come to mind, but it's taking a while to type these out).

Polynesia:

Spoiler :

Honolulu
Apia (capital of Samoa)
Nuku'alofa (capital of Tonga)
Taiohae (largest settlement on Nuku Hiva)
Uturoa (largest settlement on Raiatea)
Maungakiekie (largest pre-European village on Aotearoa, the North Island of New Zealand, in present-day Auckland)
Pape'ete (capital of Tahiti)
Hilo
Koukourarata (large 19th-century settlement on Te Wai Ponamu, the South Island of NZ, in present-day Port Levy)
Hanga Roa (capital of Rapanui, or Easter Island)
Avatoru (largest settlement on Rangiroa, the largest atoll in the Tuamotu Islands)
Avarua (largest settlement on Rarotonga and capital of the Cook Islands)
Funafuti (capital of Tuvalu)
Tubuai
Rikitea (largest settlement on Mangareva)
Kane'ohe (arbitrary decision; a town on Oahu)
Tarawa (capital of Kiribati, which contains Kritimati (the actual largest town on Christmas Island is Tabwakea))
Luaniua (main village on Ontong Java)
Alofi (capital of Niue)
Waitangi (largest settlement on Rekohu, or the Chatham Islands)
Rakahanga
Vaitape (largest settlement on Bora Bora)
Kailua (arbitrary decision; first capital of unified Hawaii and similar to Kailea, which I can't find anything for)
Mata'utu (capital of Wallis and Futuna, on Wallis Island, or Uvea)
Leava (largest settlement on Futuna Island (maybe misspelled as Futuma?))
Ahau (capital of Rotuma)
Nukunonu (largest of the three islands that make up Tokelau)
Lahaina
Matahenua (a settlement on Bellona)
Tigoa (capital of Rennell and Bellona province in the Solomon Islands)
*Beyond this point, the city list consists of Polynesian outlier islands with small populations, and I only changed spelling errors:
Tikopia
Emae
Kapingamarangi
Takuu
Nukuoro
Sikaiana (corrected spelling from Sikaina)
Anuta
Nuguria
Pileni (corrected spelling from Pilena)
Nukumanu

Iroquois

Spoiler :

Many of these are arbitrary changes with little relation to the Firaxis names, often taken from the list here. Also, since I'm not familiar with Iroquoian languages, I don't know how to make the spelling consistent, so this list contains a lot of Anglicizations (and probably some misspellings!). I tried to provide a some alternative spellings when possible.
Onondaga
Osininka
Teiaiagon (Arbitrary, from Grand River. A large settlement in the 1600's destroyed during the Beaver Wars. Alternatively, Ose Kenhionhatatie is a Mohawk name for the Grand River.)
Akwesasne
Tehoseroron (Anglicized Mohawk name for Buffalo Creek.)
Ganaraske (Arbitrary, from Brantford. Name of a Cayuga village in present-day Port Hope.)
Hochelaga (A 16th-century Iroquois village in present-day Montreal).
Genesee (Corrected spelling from Genesse River and removed the "River" portion. Anglicization of Tuscarora Chunehstiyu or Chinushio.)
Canandaigua (Edited Canandaigua Lake. Anglicization of Seneca Tganodagweh or Ganundagua.)
Taronto (Iroquois name for at least part of Lake Simcoe. Alternatively, Tkaronto.)
Caughnawaga (Arbitrary, from Salamanca. A former village near Fonda, NY. Anglicization of Mohawk Kahnawake.
Gowanda
Canienga (Arbitrary, from Buffalo. Anglicised version of the Mohawk autonym Kanienkehaka.)
Oswegatchie (Arbitrary, from Cuba. Possibly from Onondaga Oshwegaaji.)
Cattaraugus (Arbitrary, from Akron. A Seneca Reservation in New York.)
Kanesatake
Ganienkeh
Goiogouen (Cayuga name for Cayuga Castle. Also spelled Gayagaanhe).
Chondote
Canajoharie
Gandatsetiagon (Arbitrary, from Nedrow. Given as Gandesetaiagon in the link above.)
Tiohero (Arbitrary, from Syracuse. A 17th-century Cayuga town.)
Oneida (Edited Oneida Lake. Anglicization of Oneyote.)
Kanonwalohale
Tonawanda (Arbitrary, from Green Bay. A band of the Seneca.)
Owego (Arbitrary, from Southwold. Anglicization of Ahwaga.)
Kanagaro (Arbitrary, from Mohawk Valley. A Mohawk village according to the above link.)
Opolopong (Arbitrary, from Schoharie. An Oneida village according to the above link.)
Tuscarora (Arbitrary, from Bay of Quinte. Not a village, but the "Sixth Nation" that joined the Iroquois Confederacy in 1722.)
Kanawale
Kanatsiokareke
Tyendinaga
Hahta

 

[EulerMcE]

Including Londonderry as one of the Celtic cities is a bit of a blooper, since the Celtic population hate that name and always call it Derry. It would have been better to have chosen a city whose name is less controversial.

'Londonderry' is cringe worthy but I guess they used it because it's the 'official' name. However I don't think you can have a list with Irish cities and not have Derry.

The Celtic city names thing isn't something I particularly like though. Modern cities chosen with the intent of fairness or something. Though the Civ IV list wasn't that great either, mostly Gallic or Briton settlements and forts conquered by Rome.

 

[Hawaruna]

I have some spare time, so I thought I'd add my modified Celtic city list, in case anyone wants to use it. Granted, it's just the Gaelic versions of the cities Firaxis used, so there's pretty much no historical relevance, but I did it to give a more foreign feel to the Celtic cities (instead of what seems like a set of French and British cities). I left out diacritics because I couldn't figure out the encoding in the xml files.

Celtia

Spoiler :

Abbreviations: S=Scottish Gaelic, I=Irish, W=Welsh, C=Cornish, B=Breton, M=Manx. Note that they cycle through this order in the list.
Dun Eideann (S: Edinburgh)
Ath Cliath (I: Dublin. Alternatively, Dubhlinn.)
Caerdydd (W: Cardiff)
Truru (C: Truro)
Naoned (B: Nantes)
Doolish (M: Douglas)
Glaschu (S: Glasgow)
Corcaigh (I: Cork)
Aberystwyth (W)
Pennsans (C: Penzance)
Roazhon (B: Rennes)
Rhumsaa (M: Ramsey)
Inbhir Nis (S: Inverness)
Luimneach (I: Limerick)
Abertawe (W: Swansea)
Porth Ia (C: St. Ives)
Brest (B)
Purt ny h-Inshey (M: Peel)
Obar Dheathain (S: Aberdeen)
Beal Feirste (I: Belfast)
Caernarfon (W)
Tewynblustri (C: Newquay)
Sant-Nazer (B: Saint-Nazaire)
Balley Chashtal (M: Castletown)
Sruighlea (S: Stirling)
Gaillimh (I: Galway)
Conwy (W)
Austol (C: St. Austell)
Sant-Malou (B: Saint-Malo)
Kione Droghad (M: Onchan)
Dun De (S: Dundee)
Daire Calgaich (I: Londonderry)
Llanfairpwllgwyngyll (W)
Aberfala (C: Falmouth)
An Oriant (B: Lorient)
Keeill Eoin (M: St. John's)

 

[Liufeng]

Portugal-why does Portugal get colonial city names? (Maputo, Goa, Bissau, Sao Tome and Principe) other European civs who had colonial empires don't have city names from their colonies (England, France, Spain) so why should Portugal?

Well, I have another question about Portugal : Why isn't Guimarães in the city list ? It's like having US without Boston, or England without Nottingham ! It is a city of great importance to portuguse people, and the place of birht of the portuguese nation. Besides, I'd have, indeed, prefer real portuguese cities instead of colonies ...