Strategy for Tokugawa

[jayseedubya]

I was checking out the manual and saw the insane power of the Samurai. Maceman w/ 2 first strikes + combat 1! Therefore, I was interested in some strategies for noble, domination/conquest, Tokugawa on Standard of Huge maps w/ around 7 civs. I notice that not too many play as Japan, but Aggressive/Organized seem to be pretty good traits to me. As a side note, if the agressive trait of a leader gives an automatic combat I promo, does the unit need only 2 exp to get to the next level or does the combat 1 give it the requisite 2 exp and you need to get the unit to 5 exp for the next promo. Any help appreciated

 

[Compromise]

In the hands of the human player, Japan is pretty powerful. The AI Tokugawa is very isolationist and tends to be hated by all, including the other AIs, so he doesn't fare too well in most games. But if he's your neighbor, you'd better watch out early on.

The aggressive trait gives your melee and gunpowder troops Combat I for zero experience, so you can get Combat II at 2 experience, and Combat III at 5 experience.

 

[Sisiutil]

Interesting--this is the first time I've seen someone assert the potential power of the Samurai UU. Usually most people comment on how Praetorians, Redcoats, and Cossacks are overpowered, but not the Samurai. As you mentioned, few people seem to play as Japan--but I don't think that's why the power of the Samurai UU seems to have been overlooked.

The biggest problem with the Samurai is that they don't have a significant strength bonus. The Praetorians and Cossacks have a +3 strength bonus over the unit they replace, the Redcoats +2. The Cossacks and Redcoats also get an additional opposing-unit-specific bonus (Cossacks +50% versus mounted units, Redcoats +25% versus gunpowder units). The aggressive trait's free combat promotion for Samurai only works out to a +0.8 strength bonus, and that's easily matched or beaten by units produced in cities with barracks. First strikes are nice, but not nearly as powerful or important as overall strength in my experience.

In addition, as with all things, timing is everything. The Praetorians are available quite early and have a long period of usefulness (or perhaps "domination" is a better word). The Redcoats and Cossacks show up in mid-game, but are very powerful compared to both their predecessors and contemporaries, and even stand up well against their immediate successors, especially with promotions. Samurai, however, become available in the medieval era, when you're likely facing fortified longbowmen with city garrison promotions rather than mere archers in opposing cities, and more powerful knights instead of weaker horse archers out in the field. And they're quickly outclassed. Even a lowly musketman is, technically, more powerful than a Samurai.

I think you'd have to rely on the CS Slingshot to get Samurai as early as possible to make the most of them. And if you're playing at Prince or higher, the CS Slingshot is tactic with a very unlikely chance of success.

 

[Toshiro126]

Yeah, whenever you see the AI playing Japan, you can count on a so-so early game but burning out soonafter, leaving the AI with a small, radically underdeveloped civ compared to other civs.

I've played Japan a few times, and they are very good at early warmongering and expansion, and the samurai is a great unit to use. As the poor British empire to my north is currently finding out. The aggressive trait is useful, especially when you have a barracks built.

 

[malekithe]

And if you're playing at Prince or higher, the CS Slingshot is tactic with a very unlikely chance of success.

I disagreee on that point. I'd say a CS slingshot is only very unlikely at emperor (possibly immortal) or above. On prince and monarch, I'd just say it's a bit of a gamble. (actually on prince, in a lot of games, it can be just about a sure thing).

What may be more realistic on the upper difficulties in order to attain Samurai as quickly as possible is to oracle for Iron working (maybe machinery, but then you run into similar problems to a tradional CS slingshot). Then use a great prophet to get most of CS. You're still, most-likely, left researching Machinery the hard way, but at least you can do it while you're waiting on your great prophet to show.

If Samurai arrive on the scene early enough, there's a strong possibility your first victim or two will have nothing but archers for defense. You use the archers for easy promotions, then when you're having to face longbowmen, your city-raider samurai are up to the task.

The aggressive bonus is very nice too. It gives your samurai (and other units) some more versatility. Need a medic now? No problem. Need to go after a maceman and want some insurance? Take a charge promotion. The 10% bonus is nice, but the real power of the free combat promotion lies in the other promotions it unlocks. Plus, comparing it against the bonus given by a barracks is a bit ludicrous. It stacks with the barracks bonus and you get half price barrack(s). Throw in vassalage, and you can have formation-promoted samurai right out of the gate. Those should even give opposing knights pause.

 

[futurehermit]

I thought Japan looked great on paper-->great traits imo. I still like them on paper for a domination type victory. However, I found the samurai to lack the punch I was hoping for.

 

[Cam_H]

I think that there's been some concerns regarding Japan's starting technologies; Fishing and The Wheel. While on one hand it sets you neatly up for Pottery and cottages, Toku's traits doesn't quite give you that 'turbo effect' with hamlets and river-cottages that Financial leaders get (not to be critical of the importance of cottages for non-financial leaders!). With Fishing and The Wheel you get no head start to either Bronze Working or the early religions, which may hamper some strategic approaches. Clearly, if you don't settle on a square next to a lake or the ocean, the Fishing starting technology is less desirable than others for out-of-the-box benefits.

My understanding is that a reasonable general tech' strategy for Japan would be to focus on Alphabet while adding in Mining and Bronze Working along the way, and trade Writing for basic-level technologies using cottages as effectively as possible. If you have a city that can build The Oracle or Stonehenge for slingshots to Civil Service, so much the better.

I kind of like the timing of the UU, as it's at a point where you can chop your cheap Courthouses quickly for captured cities that don't get burned, and you have access to a good range of units including Catapults, which can suit Japan's growth through conquest approach. Then again, if you don't have Iron ...

Wading through commentary of GOTM-03 may be of interest and value.

 

[futurehermit]

^^exactly. great domination traits. however, his uu leaves something to be desired. imo his starting techs are ok, esp if you can get coastal cities early.

 

[nealhunt]

My son loves Samurai, so I've seen a lot of games with Toku.

You definitely have to rush to Civil Service and Machinery in order to maximize the benefits of Samurai. A standard CS slingshot followed by a run for Machinery seems to work best. Optimal advancement (imho) is to use a Prophet for help CS and the Oracle to help on the Machinery path.

Overall, I'd say the best strat goes something like:

Research BW
Research Mysticism and start Stonehenge.
Research Pottery.
Research Iron Working.
Beeline for CoL and start Oracle when you get Priesthood.
Beeline for Machinery.
Burn the Prophet on CS.
Burn the Oracle on the Machinery path whenever it hits.

In the meantime, wage war. You'll have to pick up the metal techs early anyway. Your melee units should stay advanced enough that you won't need Catapults until Samurai are starting to have other problems anyway.

There is a fair chance on Monarch that you will miss Oracle, but the cash infusion can either propel your research or provide money to upgrade the more experienced melee units to Samurai.

 

[futurehermit]

^^good pts. i've changed my mind on samurai, i like them again. i think i was just using them wrong/waiting too long to get them. i'm going to try again, this time trying to streamline to get them asap. plus i'm getting better at early combat. i'm more of a peaceful-expansive player by nature and i used to keep each city i ended up taking (usually in retribution for a civ declaring war on me since i was peaceful and low on the power graph, lol). but since then, i've learned a lot and when i'm being aggressive early if i destroy a city that is too far to my capital i'll just raze it. if it's in a good spot, i will expand toward it, but i don't want to cripple my econ early. only in rare situations will i keep it now (e.g., if it is a holy city or something).

 

[Fetch]

Even a lowly musketman is, technically, more powerful than a Samurai.

True. Ever watch "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise? That final battle is brutal.

I think you'd have to rely on the CS Slingshot to get Samurai as early as possible to make the most of them. And if you're playing at Prince or higher, the CS Slingshot is tactic with a very unlikely chance of success.

What is the CS slingshot? Cottage Spam?

 

[Sisiutil]

What is the CS slingshot? Cottage Spam?

Nope. Research Code of Laws while building the Oracle so the latter is completed the same turn (or just after) the research is finished. Choose Civil Service (hence CS) as your free tech.

Change to the Bureaucracy civic to boost production in your capitol. Link farms. Build Courthouses, then Forbidden Palace to reduce maintenance. Discover Machinery and you can build/upgrade to Macemen. A nice bonus is that by rushing to CoL, you probably founded Confucianism, which I like because I usually don't bother founding religions, but CoL is so valuable otherwise that it's worth a bee-line.

This gambit gives you a big boost. In every game where I manage to pull this off, soon afterwards, I "slingshot" ahead of the other civs. Be warned that it's tough to achieve on the higher difficulty levels--though I'm managing it on Prince (took me a few games) and I've had other people tell me they've done it on Monarch. Deity and Immortal players, however, tend to tell you to not even bother--the AI will beat you to the Oracle.

 

[nealhunt]

I usually manage it on Monarch, but I double up. I go for Stonehenge for the early Great Prophet. If you manage your tech tree properly, you can use him to research Civil Service if you don't get the Oracle timing correct.

 

[Oggums]

Don't underestimate the value of first strikes in a era where the AI primarily defends with longbows.

Samurai are insane city raiders for thier time, and when accompanied with suicide catapults to soften them up, fully promoted raiders continue to be valuable up to and including rifles.

 

[Crighton]

"when accompanied by suicide cats" anything is an effective city raider

Personally, japan looks grat on paper but always seems to just get knee capped in the game. Toku has it coming when played by the AI (isolationism coupled with a mean personality doesn't do well it seems), I've had several failures with Toku, I did have one unbelievablly good Domination victory with him once. mansa is still pissed at me after that battle, 20 city empire vs 25 cities, I was just on the cusp of upgrading the samurai to rifleman when he declared war. The samurai did well enough to hold the line, all things considered.

 

[Oggums]

"when accompanied by suicide cats" anything is an effective city raider

Sure, but you'd still lose a lot more macemen, or need more catapults.

It's no accident that Samurai and Cho-ko-nu have been my most highly promoted units of all the games I've played.

 

[colony]

Don't underestimate the value of first strikes in a era where the AI primarily defends with longbows.

Very true, those first strikes make a big difference, and give them the ability to survive far longer than normal Macemen can on an attack, and they have to spend less time healing because of those first strikes. With Theocracy or Vassalage you can build Combat 1/Cover/CR 1 Samurai, which I've found don't actually need suicide cats to take cities (unless they're on hills), once you bombarb the cultural defences. I think the power of first strikes are underestimated by a lot of players.

The strength boost isn't as big as Praets, Cossacks or Redcoats get, but Cossacks/Redcoats come late in the game anyway, and are hard to really change the result of the game with, and Praets are simply the best UU in the game.

Japan's starting techs aren't too bad, although Agri or Mining would be preferable to Fishing. Being able to research Pottery first lets you get cottages down very early, which in turn makes the CS slingshot less risky. Pottery --> Mining --> BW is the path I take a lot of the time with Japan, and it allows much more expansion (in terms of being able to support cities) than going for BW does.

I haven't tried the CS slingshot on Emperor yet. My instinct is that it would take a bit of luck to pull off, but it may be doable, if not reliably enough to base your strategy on.

The spoilers from GOTM 3 are definately a good place to start if you want to get some tips on using Tokugawa

 

[Lord Chambers]

Here's me discovering Civil Service in 1000bc on Monarch with Tokugawa, in case someone wants to see how it might look. It definitely puts you behind in the land grab. I was only able to build one other city. Also interesting is that I continue to sink to the bottom of the scoreboard until about 300ad, when I get my first Samurai online. Then by 1600ish I'm on top, having vaped three civs and never produced any units in cities other than the first two. Even weirder is that I've never been below 100 or 90% on my slider (I'm usually happy to see its at 50%) since I founded Buddhism and Confucianism, and was up to 1500gold by the time I started running a deficit at 100%.

It's strange how no one talked about the CS slingshot on these boards, at least in the strategy forum, until very recently. I only heard about it on the Apolyton forums, and this was my first try. Now it seems every fifth post is about it.

 

[Oggums]

CS slingshot has been discussed in the past, especially back around November-ish when there was a lot more "what to do with Oracle" discussion going on. I'm guessing the main reason you don't see it mentioned here very often is because there's usually a few dismissive replies, with a bit of an attitude along the lines of, "If it doesn't work on Emperor or higher, it isn't a valid strategy."

Just downloaded your save, curious how you managed it on Monarch, to be honest.

 

[Mutineer]

It is very doable on Monarch if you have 1-2 gold/silver at capital. No problem at all.