Strongest UU excluding the Praetorian?

Best UU excluding the Praetorian?

  • Ballista Elephant

    Votes: 4 1.0%
  • Berserker

    Votes: 10 2.6%
  • Bowman

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Catapract

    Votes: 38 9.9%
  • Carrack

    Votes: 9 2.3%
  • Cho Ko Nu

    Votes: 30 7.8%
  • Conquistador

    Votes: 7 1.8%
  • Dog Soldier

    Votes: 6 1.6%
  • East Indiaman, Fast Worker

    Votes: 30 7.8%
  • Gallic Swordman

    Votes: 4 1.0%
  • Hwacha

    Votes: 2 0.5%
  • Holkan

    Votes: 3 0.8%
  • Immortal

    Votes: 48 12.5%
  • ImpiVulture

    Votes: 15 3.9%
  • Jaguar

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Janissary

    Votes: 9 2.3%
  • Landsknecht

    Votes: 34 8.9%
  • Navy Seal

    Votes: 14 3.7%
  • Numidian Cavalry

    Votes: 5 1.3%
  • Oromo Warrior

    Votes: 23 6.0%
  • Quechua

    Votes: 24 6.3%
  • Redcoat

    Votes: 28 7.3%
  • Skirmisher

    Votes: 7 1.8%
  • Keshik

    Votes: 6 1.6%
  • Other UU that I couldn't fit! :lol:

    Votes: 25 6.5%

  • Total voters
    383
Something I have never done the experiment on. Does movement matter when building improvements, or are Fast Workers just quicker to get to the job?

Same speed, but... They can move onto hills, forests, and cross rivers after moving, and still start their work that turn. So actually they do save quite alot of time; This is especially noticible, and powerful when using the ever important choprush.

I'm a fan of the fast worker, It's solid. but I don't think they are great like some of the stronger UUs.
 
Prats are pretty strong but I dunno, I find I can take um lol I killed a roman city I had rushed with immortals and he had a prat guarding it :p

Oromos are second.

Cats third.

Fast Workers are above prats :p everyone knows that, they just aren't what people think when they ask "What is the most powerful" that makes people think power, if you asked what is the most game benefiting or game changing unit, I think the Fast Worker would be number one on everyones list.

Asoka/Ghandi may be peacemongers to some but in actuality they are some of the best warmongers you can pick ;) no joke, think about it.
 
Same speed, but... They can move onto hills, forests, and cross rivers after moving, and still start their work that turn. So actually they do save quite alot of time; This is especially noticible, and powerful when using the ever important choprush.

I'm a fan of the fast worker, It's solid. but I don't think they are great like some of the stronger UUs.

I agree with most except the last line(FW worth >> stronger UU- fast worker lets you have more tech. advanced UU, which negates most beatstick UUs). If fast-workers build improvements 1.5x faster, it would be an unbeatable advantage, for you'd essentially be researching tanks by the time others are researching riflemen given how fast your cities would be built up.
They get to the tiles muc faster, especially when empires are getting bigger- i've seen fast worker cover same ground in 2-3 turns on road when vanilla workers would take 4-5 turns. Plus as Phungus said, start work on same turn after crossing river/into jungle.

Essentially speaking, you are looking at your mine being built 2 turns early/plantation getting done 2-3 turns earlier, etc. on average, depending on the whole logistics ( eg, how far is your worker when calendar is available and city with plantation crops that need to be built up?).
So essentially speaking, finishing a farm/pasture 1 turn earlier or building mines/plantations 1-3 turns earlier might not seem much but consider how much building your worker is doing over the whole game- it is a HUGE advantage to have. You are building 50-60 farms, 50-60 mines, 10-15 plantations etc per game on average and on each one the FW is finishing 1-3 turns earlier because of movement logistics. That adds up insanely near the end-game.

Plus you are forgetting- with your movement bonus, fast workers will build roads & railway at near-warp speed compared to vanilla workers since they take 1 less turn to build every tile of road due to their movement bonus(think how much quicker he is going to link a major city of yours to a minor one needing a road connection to capital).

And if you think about it, having a fast worker is almost equal to having the expansive trait added to your trait in mid-game. If you tihnk about it, expansive trait provides you with faster granary & harbour- things that help your food situation. But cities get better food if they are connected to the 'culture network' faster- your 'warp speed road-building worker' will essentially make your town grow faster because it establishes connection with your capital MUCH faster (thus impacting on happiness & growth factor much quicker).
If you play as India and you plop a city down on decent ground ( ie, not on the polar cap/middle of desert and the city has potential to grow) and the next nearby foreign civ town is on equally good/better agricultural grounds and has a population of 2-3 already, your Indian city will still outgrow the foreign city by the time population hits 8-9.

If you know how to use the fast worker skill efficiently, India is an incredibly powerful side to play with. IMO, fast worker UU is much more subtle in its impact but far bigger than any other UU militarily speaking (though a good player on rome can own a good player of India playing p2p if they spawn close by) because it has synergy effect with its leadership traits.
Remember, both of India's leaders have spiritual trait, so there is no anarchy.

Over the course of the game, if you switch civics 3-4 times and experience 2-5 turns of anarchy(depending on diff. setting i guess), it is essentially equivalent of having 6-10 workers getting 6-20 free turns through the course of the game- that is essentially equivalent of me having an entire 20 population city being built over my next best rival in 100-120 turns!

If you think of 'most powerful unit' as not one having the best 'whacking potential' but as the one which benifits your empire & your civilization's survivability/development the most, the FW is quite easily the best.
Since India doesn't have aggressive traits or a good unique beat-stick, India's big challenge is essentially staying alive and up to tech.power with the rest by the time it has 7-8 cities well set up(with say 4-5 population minimum in 7-8 cities).
If India makes it to that point, you shouldn't lose.
 
If you think of 'most powerful unit' as not one having the best 'whacking potential' but as the one which benifits your empire & your civilization's survivability/development the most

But the first thing is very important to the second. If you are boxed in, or got peacefully beaten to some really sweet land, than the best way to benefit your development is to kick whoever took that land in the nuts, and take that land by force. A Quechua, Immortal, War Chariot, Vulture, Phalanx or Praetorian is going to help your empire's growth so much more in such a situation than a beefed up worker could. And these situations are not rare.
 
A Quechua, Immortal, War Chariot, Vulture, Phalanx or Praetorian is going to help your empire's growth so much more in such a situation than a beefed up worker could.

Meh, i disagree. When i get boxed in that kind of situation, i simply go for 'good defence & tech development' till 1200 AD-1400 AD period straightaway, looking to get a tech lead and have enough units to deter invasion.
The fast worker gets you up to speed and ahead in no time by simply developing your cities like crazy early on and throughout the game. Enough so that you can keep researching at 90-100% and have a decent enough deterrant force.
Then usually i tempt my neighbour to attack me but thanks to Ashoka's organized trait, i am usually quite rich and diplomatically nice enough to get another close by empire to declare war on my attacker, turtling for a few turns and then using the 2vs1 advantage(coupled with tech. advantage,meaning i usually have less # but better units than that dood, if you play your civ right, you can get +3/+4 starting bonus with 100% war unit prod. boost) and whack him.

Most war civs i find harder to play, simply because most of them are dependent on one resource or another granting them their 'edge' and say as Rome or Persia, you don't have Iron, then you are b*lloxed. Overall, having the ability to research at 90-100% whole game is an insane advantage to have- and its the organized + fast worker trait that makes it possible.
 
You are not going to get much of a tech lead with 3 cities, 2 of which are not amazing, while your neighbour dwells in floodplain/plainshill terretory with ressources all over.

True, if you find yourself alone on an island with enough space for 10 cities, fast workers 4tw!

If there is another civ within 8 spaces, prepare for war.
And be the one who strikes first, as they will come for you at some point.
 
I wouldn't call axemen or archers "counters" to phalanx anymore then I would call them counters to other axemen. (Archers in a city will counter almost anything in their time 1:1 - but that's all they're good for.) The bottom line is this: If I'm neighbors with Pericles (no AGG trait) and lets even say that I've got IW with access to iron, horses - I've got an army of chariots, swordmen, axemen, archers, spearmen - you name it... and Pericles declares war and sends his stack of Phalanx at me, I'd be getting pretty nervous... my best basic (promo free) offensive counter is at best going to have 50/50 odds on attack. The first real counter to phalanx, I agree, is the horse-archer, but HBR doesn't come early and this counter assumes you've got horses in the first place.

Antilogic's post quoted eariler was well said.
See? That's probably the difference between your evaluation of the unit and mine. I wouldn't get nervous in the least because I can just whip two or three cheap archers that'll make sure he can never get one of my cities and research HBR (which if you go for it comes insanely fast). But as I said, it's probably a matter of taste.
Besides, if you don't have horses the matchup is the same as against a normal opponent who comes at you with axemen. Would you become very nervous in that case? The horse argument in itself is moot because that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't have horses you don't have a counter to either axemen or phalanx.

As for the Jags: I guess I'll have to give that a try, didn't think of it. I'll get back to you in a few days with it :lol:
 
Well, he made you whip, which means you just decreased your science output and productivity.
Therefor, if he decides to retreat (which they do now at some point where they cannot win) he won.
 
Prats are pretty strong but I dunno, I find I can take um lol I killed a roman city I had rushed with immortals and he had a prat guarding it :p

Oromos are second.

Cats third.

Fast Workers are above prats :p everyone knows that, they just aren't what people think when they ask "What is the most powerful" that makes people think power, if you asked what is the most game benefiting or game changing unit, I think the Fast Worker would be number one on everyones list.

Asoka/Ghandi may be peacemongers to some but in actuality they are some of the best warmongers you can pick ;) no joke, think about it.

I'ts correct. Better production => more units. And quantity are often better than quality in civ (As long it ain't Archers vs. Riflemen...)
 
See? That's probably the difference between your evaluation of the unit and mine. I wouldn't get nervous in the least because I can just whip two or three cheap archers that'll make sure he can never get one of my cities and research HBR (which if you go for it comes insanely fast). But as I said, it's probably a matter of taste.

That's a survival tactic - I can't really see how it leaves you in a better position. So you've whipped some archers... That's gonna cost population, which translates into lost production, commerce, and/or research. (Whipping units is expensive.) Archers are a short-term solution - phalanx could probably take a basic archer defending a city maybe 2:1? HBR - you're going to beeline it... well that's all fine and dandy, but what are you going to do in the meantime? Those archers arn't going to protect your land. The AI isn't known for it's pilliaging skills, but as for me, well I'd start pilliaging as well and even with chariots, there's nothing you could do about it. Those horse-archers you're planning to build - well that resource is pilliaged. Forget about building improvements during this time. So, if you do manage to survive, by the time you come out of this war, you're a third world Civ.

The horse argument in itself is moot because that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't have horses you don't have a counter to either axemen or phalanx.

Yeah - I gotta give you this one. You're right about that. :goodjob:
 
You are not going to get much of a tech lead with 3 cities, 2 of which are not amazing, while your neighbour dwells in floodplain/plainshill terretory with ressources all over.

Well yes, in that situation you are better off with a war UU but having 2-3 cities before getting boxed in has happened to me only once- i was next to Tokugawa and i simply made a friend out of him & expanded around him till i had 5-6 cities and absorbed him into the fold. Since this is a FW UU conversation, it goes without saying that the strategy is tied to India's gameplay. And you will find that India is one of best diplomacy sides in the game- religions you found spread faster than most people's, people get friendlier easier and the huge money advantage means you can often BUY friends.
But usually, fast worker is the godsend for long term planning-nothing like the fast worker to make you 'catch up' to the rest of the empires after a long gruelling war where you fell behind the times.
 
That's a survival tactic - I can't really see how it leaves you in a better position. So you've whipped some archers... That's gonna cost population, which translates into lost production, commerce, and/or research. (Whipping units is expensive.) Archers are a short-term solution - phalanx could probably take a basic archer defending a city maybe 2:1? HBR - you're going to beeline it... well that's all fine and dandy, but what are you going to do in the meantime? Those archers arn't going to protect your land. The AI isn't known for it's pilliaging skills, but as for me, well I'd start pilliaging as well and even with chariots, there's nothing you could do about it. Those horse-archers you're planning to build - well that resource is pilliaged. Forget about building improvements during this time. So, if you do manage to survive, by the time you come out of this war, you're a third world Civ.

Point in case: The same happens to you if you fight an enemy that uses axemen and a spearman under each stack instead of only Phalanxes. If you attack with a chariot, the spearman will slaughter at least two of them before giving way which means you in general just expended 50 :hammers: to (unlikely even because he'll probably survive) kill one unit and then you have to have more chariots to beat the axemen after that. Since you'll pretty much always have a large numerical advantage when attacking (I'd say at least a 3:1 ratio at the border) that one additional spearman won't exactly cost much production-wise or else.
Besides, the same as for the horse argument goes for the horse-pillaging argument - there's no difference between the case with axemen/spearmen or phalangitai :D

Being attacked always sucks in civ so the best you can do is to try and defend as good as possible. Search defensive positions and try to lure your opponent into a trap. It's not exactly like my whipping costs me more than his unit supply/maintenance (at least on Emperor level).

Besides, which difficulty setting do you play at? A friend reminded me that it is indeed of interest for this discussion, although I thought at first it was not.


I tried that Monty thing on Emperor, and it just doesn't work well for me. Going to Theology/Feudalism first just takes too long. Jaguars have to rush early or the AI army will be too large.
That means I gave them woodsman II and each that was promoted got the - admittedly awesome - woodsman III which yields 2 FS, 15% extra healing on the tile and 50% forest attack. I had no large problems beating Mao over the head after he attacked another neighbor but that in itself is no huge feat as I could have done just the same with an axemen army, only a bit slower.
The large problem with it is that with another agg civ, my swordsmen would just have attacked better than the jags. I grant that on forests they are great but since I can just protect my units with an axeman or two it's not very difficult in another way, either.

I don't like the strategy anyways because I had some problems attacking axemen or even well-promoted archers. It was only because I pillaged Mao's three iron/copper deposits at the start of the war that made it easy-going. However again, it's standard-equipment in the strategical toolbox and I don't think the war would've gone worse with e.g. Ragnar.
Besides, after the war you'll be stuck with Monty's imo mediocre traits. I don't think Spi is very strong (diplomacy gets easier, so in fact I like it, but from a pure strength perspective I don't think it's that good), and while I recently found Agg a bit more to my taste than it was earlier, I still don't think it beats things like Cha or Org for waging wars.
 
Point in case: The same happens to you if you fight an enemy that uses axemen and a spearman under each stack instead of only Phalanxes. If you attack with a chariot, the spearman will slaughter at least two of them before giving way which means you in general just expended 50 :hammers: to (unlikely even because he'll probably survive) kill one unit and then you have to have more chariots to beat the axemen after that. Since you'll pretty much always have a large numerical advantage when attacking (I'd say at least a 3:1 ratio at the border) that one additional spearman won't exactly cost much production-wise or else.
Besides, the same as for the horse argument goes for the horse-pillaging argument - there's no difference between the case with axemen/spearmen or phalangitai :D

Being attacked always sucks in civ so the best you can do is to try and defend as good as possible. Search defensive positions and try to lure your opponent into a trap. It's not exactly like my whipping costs me more than his unit supply/maintenance (at least on Emperor level).

Right, the axemen / spearmen combo basically = phalanx. Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the real advantage was summed up nicely in Antilogic's post quoted by Innawerkz earlier. If I come with a stack of 3 spearmen and 3 axemen, and you counter with 12 chariots (just an example) - sure you're going to have a difficult time with my spearmen, but when they're dead, you'll roll over my axemen with no problem. If I come with 6 phalanx though, there's no break-point where you'll have the battle advantage. (It's like coming with 6 spearmen and 6 axemen - two for the price of one... well, not quite, but you get the idea.) So with phalanx, I can produce fewer units and still maintain the advantage in battle proportionately to having to build a balanced army.

This comes at a time in the game that I think is generally the most defining part - the early game often decides the "finalists" for victory. Mistakes made here are felt for the rest of the game. Being somewhat of a warmonger myself, I often find that early game warring is often the most difficult warring. Later in the game, I've got more production cities on line and can usually build massive armies, complete with seige weapons, relatively quickly. Phalanx allow me to concentrate limited early production on one unit giving me the battle advantage in early wars, hammer for hammer, against other Civ's.

Besides, which difficulty setting do you play at? A friend reminded me that it is indeed of interest for this discussion, although I thought at first it was not.

You do play a few levels higher than me - I play Prince normally. (Though I've been debating on moving up - I'm not finding Prince that challenging lately.) Still, I think when it comes to Civ, my main strength is warring. I win by taking out most or all of my continent (playing hemispheres lately), taking their land, and essentially out-producing any other Civ's left on the map... a strategy which I may need to refine at higher levels. But... it works well on Pince.
 
You do play a few levels higher than me - I play Prince normally. (Though I've been debating on moving up - I'm not finding Prince that challenging lately.) Still, I think when it comes to Civ, my main strength is warring. I win by taking out most or all of my continent (playing hemispheres lately), taking their land, and essentially out-producing any other Civ's left on the map... a strategy which I may need to refine at higher levels. But... it works well on Pince.

In fact I don't think it matters much, warmongering will win you the game on any difficulty setting it just becomes more difficult to pull off.
Depending on which map you play (I guess you play continents) it is a bit more or less difficult to do that stuff. If you play with tech trading (I usually play without because with tech-trading I just bribe the AI into joining a war or making peace with me which makes the game easier for me - I'm fairly good at that diplomacy-level AI exploiting I guess) there is the issue on continents maps that you can have a hard time not falling behind if you take over your whole continent and didn't discover the other one yet.
Lately I prefer playing Big and Small with massive continents which is usually one really large continent with a few smaller ones and small islands to settle on. Sometimes you'll spawn on another continent which makes waging war difficult because you have to get your troops over somehow, but since I also discovered my love for Darius (Fin/Org ftw) it doesn't overly bother me. If I don't have any enemies to whack over the head I build the Great Lighthouse and trade them dead.

Anyways, as you said, let's not :deadhorse: with the Phalanx, I think everything's been said.

I tried the Fast Worker out and must say it has something I didn't remember before: The ability to chop one turn more quickly. That comes in really handy when you try to pull out an invasion/defensive army.
However I don't think Spiritual is that strong as I detailed earlier so I don't believe the UU fits well for that. You can also use it to chop wonders but then again Gandhi doesn't have Ind anymore... I believe the merit of the fast worker is fairly limited. Later when you have roads everywhere and enough workers to throw around taking a few turns more doesn't make such a large difference anymore, either.
 
Samauri.:ninja: (I don't have any supporting evidence though.)

Samauri arn't just suberb fighters they look good too; If we had a poll on which UU is the best dressed there would only need to be one option, samuri, as no other even comes close in dress sense. However with togu of Japan every gunpowder unit that comes after practically qualifies as a UU! Musketmen onwards start with 3 free promotions! What's that you say about oromo? pff.
 
Samauri arn't just suberb fighters they look good too; If we had a poll on which UU is the best dressed there would only need to be one option, samuri, as no other even comes close in dress sense. However with togu of Japan every gunpowder unit that comes after practically qualifies as a UU! Musketmen onwards start with 3 free promotions! What's that you say about oromo? pff.

Oromo still have a default additional first strikes w/o drill.. And they look much much cooler than the Samurai also :p
 
Personally i think its the cataphract. i used to love 1st strike type units and promotions till one day, my decent size army of 60% Cho-Ko-Nu had to fight Napoleon's Combat II Knights... Nightmare, over half my 4-6 promo CKNs got slaughtered by less than half the amount of knights. Luckily i popped out a few longbowmen, with CG I+II, and managed to hold my ground after losing the first city. Got my best buddy Shaka to attack Napoleon while my own stack of Pikes/Cho/Treb/Longs fought France out of my country and into theirs. I have to say tho, marathon speed makes quick response much harder and this was my first game on marathon...

OK, i got way off topic! My fave are the pure browbeaters like Cataphracts!
 
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